Kuntz OD&D versus Gygax OD&D

[Finarvyn]

Foster had an interesting thought that I wanted to explore without derailing the "Influence of Tolkien" thread. The emphasis inside the quote is mine...

foster1941 said:

Supplement I adds even more Vance and Leiber, as well as a lot of A. Merritt, some Lovecraft, and perhaps some Clark Ashton Smith (pet theory: the CAS-influence is the main thing that separates "Kuntz-feel" D&D from "Gygax-feel" D&D -- I detect a lot of CAS in Rob's work and little if any in Gary's) and the result is pretty much "the AD&D feel" -- ERB and de Camp & Pratt (and a ton more authors faithfully catalogued in Gygax's "Inspirational Reading" list in the AD&D DMG) also fit in there somewhere, though perhaps more obliquely.

We often discuss whether we like best the LBB or LBB+supplements, and I suppose this is an offshoot of that conversation. Certainly the supplements added several layers to the OD&D game -- layers that some love a lot and others not so much. While in my mind I always associate "OD&D = Gygax/Arneson", there is no question that others like Rob Kuntz had a hand in the game's evolution as early as 1975.

Some have said that LBB+Supplements+SR becomes something quite similar to AD&D, as the game transforms from something quite simple to something more complex.

Anyone have thoughts on the differing style and inspiration behind the supplements?

[foster1941]

I'd never read anything by CAS until a couple months ago, and this comparison/contrast was something that really stood out to me when I finally did get around to doing so. Note also that on the one hand RJK is very open in his admiration for CAS, whereas on the other he was one of several high-profile authors conspicuously missing from Gygax's famous Inspirational Reading list (others including C.S. Lewis, Mervyn Peake, E.R. Eddison, James Branch Cabell, George Macdonald, William Morris, etc. -- pretty much the entirety of the literary so-called "adult fantasy" tradition outside of Tolkien and Lord Dunsany).

[calithena]

Greyhawk moves a substantial way towards AD&D IMO. LBB's + Greyhawk = "Gygax D&D"; Frank Mentzer has suggested that the differences between that and AD&D 1 owe a lot to Law Schick (Mentzer thinks of AD&D 1 as 'Schick D&D' - this is interesting in that Gygax's stamp on it is overwhelming, but it may be that the material Gygax chose has a lot of connection to the stuff Schick liked best, for example. Frank was there and I'm sure that there's something to what he's saying.)

Blackmoor, to me, adds a 'weird science' angle much more conspicuously than any of the others. Though apparently a good deal of the Blackmoor supplement was actually written by Steve Marsh; I don't know that this feel comes out of the Blackmoor supplement so much as all we've learned about the campaign elsewhere from DA.

Eldritch Wizardry, as Foster put it on K&K I think, was as far as 'official' D&D ever went in the direction of Arduin. Not as good at Arduin at it either. (I'd say that high level 3e also goes in this direction, FWIW, and Tweet and Cook were both big Arduin fans.)

[foster1941]

calithena said:

Eldritch Wizardry, as Foster put it on K&K I think, was as far as 'official' D&D ever went in the direction of Arduin. Not as good at Arduin at it either. (I'd say that high level 3e also goes in this direction, FWIW, and Tweet and Cook were both big Arduin fans.)

Rogueattorney is actually the one who originally said that (though I agree with it and may have also repeated it somewhere...).

Supplement II is a mess because it's essentially bits and pieces of three different things all stitched together -- Arneson's "weird science" vibe, Steve Marsh's elemental plane of water (which was edited into general underwater adventuring), and miscellaneous bits and pieces from Gygax that were probably originally intended as Strategic Review articles (the assassin and monk classes and the articles on sages and disease). This makes the supplement harder to pin down (and, IMO, less satisfying) than Supps I or III -- an "all Arneson" supplement containing more of the stuff from FFC, or an "all Marsh" supplement containing more of his planar stuff would've been much better.

[grodog]

Kuntz's literary influences were heavily influenced by Gygax's as well (Gary got him started on S&S fiction, including CAS IIRC), but to me, Kuntz's material is in general more Lovecraftian, more CAS-ian, and more planar in nature than much of Gygax's stuff.

To me, Gary's more de Camp/Pratt, Burroughs, and Zelazny than Rob. The two were equally Leiber, Howard, Vance, and Tolkien, IMO.

Unfortunately, neither seems to have been as strongly Moorcock or Farmer influenced in their planar concepts/ideals as I'd prefer

[foster1941]

grodog said:

To me, Gary's more de Camp/Pratt, Burroughs, and Zelazny than Rob. The two were equally Leiber, Howard, Vance, and Tolkien, IMO.

There's also a ton of A. Merritt in Gygax's work; something I don't detect much of in Rob's.

[casey777]

foster1941 said:

Note also that on the one hand RJK is very open in his admiration for CAS, whereas on the other he was one of several high-profile authors conspicuously missing from Gygax's famous Inspirational Reading list (others including C.S. Lewis, Mervyn Peake, E.R. Eddison, James Branch Cabell, George Macdonald, William Morris, etc. -- pretty much the entirety of the literary so-called "adult fantasy" tradition outside of Tolkien and Lord Dunsany).

I noticed that years later when I finally saw the list in Moldvay Basic. One reason I read Lovecraft years before CAS.

Was there an earlier version of this list (in Dragon?) and are CAS and any of these other authors listed there?

[Melan]

Would it count as stirring up a hornet's nest to speculate what role Brian Blume had in the process (aside from the business angle)? Eldritch Wizardry is pretty much the most sword&sorcery-based supplement in the OD&D line, but the game very quickly went in other directions in tone and literary influence - towards "middle ages fantasy". To its detriment, in my opinion.

Someone should do an interview with that guy. A Q&A thread on DF probably wouldn't work so well, although of course if James "Angry Mothers from Heck" Ward wasn't run off the site, maybe he wouldn't be either.

It is also notable that despite the possibilities, OD&D very quickly parted with the planetary romance elements; the likes of Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Moore, Brackett aren't prominently featured on the influences list, and I would argue that not even Vance's "SF" work had much of an effect.

[James Maliszewski]

calithena said:

Greyhawk moves a substantial way towards AD&D IMO. LBB's + Greyhawk = "Gygax D&D"; Frank Mentzer has suggested that the differences between that and AD&D 1 owe a lot to Law Schick (Mentzer thinks of AD&D 1 as 'Schick D&D' - this is interesting in that Gygax's stamp on it is overwhelming, but it may be that the material Gygax chose has a lot of connection to the stuff Schick liked best, for example. Frank was there and I'm sure that there's something to what he's saying.)

Again, take this for what it's worth, but Gygax has consistently maintained that a lot of what went into AD&D was in fact the work of Lawrence Schick -- pretty much any major rules that don't have an analog in Greyhawk or other supplements, for the most part. Accurate or not, I do think it's telling that, when Gygax plays D&D, he plays a modified form of OD&D rather than full-bore AD&D, which, from what I've gathered, isn't very close to his own preferred style of play and never was.

[James Maliszewski]

foster1941 said:

There's also a ton of A. Merritt in Gygax's work; something I don't detect much of in Rob's.

Yes, indeed. Gygax claims that Merritt was one of the biggest influences on the development of D&D, particularly "The Moon Pool."

[James Maliszewski]

melan said:

It is also notable that despite the possibilities, OD&D very quickly parted with the planetary romance elements; the likes of Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Moore, Brackett aren't prominently featured on the influences list, and I would argue that not even Vance's "SF" work had much of an effect.

"Sword & Planet" stories clearly had a powerful influence over Gygax and a lot of early D&D material, including Blackmoor and the Judges Guild Wilderlands setting. The AD&D DMG lists Burroughs and Brackett in its bibliography, but their influence was pretty light by that point, which is a pity.

[calithena]

Thanks for the corroboration, James. I hadn't talked to Gary about that directly so I didn't know. The text is strikingly Gary's throughout, but apparently the rules owe a lot to Law.

[grodog]

foster1941 said:

There's also a ton of A. Merritt in Gygax's work; something I don't detect much of in Rob's.

I haven't read any Merritt yet and will have to fix that. Thanks for the reminder, Trent

[grodog]

casey777 said:

Was there an earlier version of this list (in Dragon?) and are CAS and any of these other authors listed there?

There was. The earlier version was in TD#4 (page 29) and it listed Algernon Blackwood (in general) as well as Fred Saberhagen's Changling Earth; those two aren't listed in Appendix N.

[grodog]

melan said:

Would it count as stirring up a hornet's nest to speculate what role Brian Blume had in the process (aside from the business angle)? Eldritch Wizardry is pretty much the most sword&sorcery-based supplement in the OD&D line, but the game very quickly went in other directions in tone and literary influence - towards "middle ages fantasy". To its detriment, in my opinion.

I have a copy of an early TSR typescript which is likely Blume/Gygax/Kuntz, and it's certainly distinct from the styles of either Rob or Gary solo.

melan said:

Someone should do an interview with that guy.

Stormberg has been in touch with Blume, though I don't know how accessible he is in general, or even if he's online much.

melan said:

It is also notable that despite the possibilities, OD&D very quickly parted with the planetary romance elements; the likes of Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Moore, Brackett aren't prominently featured on the influences list, and I would argue that not even Vance's "SF" work had much of an effect.

Some of that may have been due to legal reasons too: not saying that your game was heavily influenced by the IP of someone that has already sued/C&D'd you is probably a good way to remain in business

[jrients]

I think I can see Schick's hand in the segment based combat in the DMG. Didn't he have a thing for segments in at least one or two of his Dragon articles? The clumsiness of the text for the multiple attacks rules make more sense if Gygax is trying to explain someone else's elaborate scheme.

[James Maliszewski]

jrients said:

I think I can see Schick's hand in the segment based combat in the DMG. Didn't he have a thing for segments in at least one or two of his Dragon articles? The clumsiness of the text for the multiple attacks rules make more sense if Gygax is trying to explain someone else's elaborate scheme.

If I recall, Gygax specifically mentioned this as being one of the areas he was least happy with in AD&D and that he most regrets having included against his better judgment.

[geoffrey]

I've done a quick study of the 1977/78 D&D rulebook edited by J. Eric Holmes. I've looked at PC races, PC classes, spells, monsters, and magic items. The vast majority of all of these originally appeared in either the 1974 rules, or in the Greyhawk supplement. Here are the exceptions:

1st-level magic-user spells
dancing lights
enlargements
Tenser's floating disc

2nd-level magic-user spells
audible glamer
ray of enfeeblement

1st-level cleric spells
remove fear
resist cold

2nd-level cleric spells
know alignment
resist fire

monsters
fire beetles (originally appeared in Blackmoor and created by Gary Gygax and Timothy Kask)
shriekers (originally appeared in The Strategic Review #3)
troglodytes (originally appeared in Gary's 1976 Tsojcanth module)

magic items
Scroll of any potion spell except delusion or poison
Scroll of any ring spell except wishes or regeneration
Scroll of any wand spell

I'm confident that all the above spells were given by Gary to Dr. Holmes from the Players Handbook manuscript. The three odd classifications of scrolls listed above I suspect originated with Dr. Holmes.

My point with all of the above is that the Holmes rulebook is almost completely Gygaxian in its lists of races, classes, spells, monsters, and magic items.

[calithena]

Pure Dex initiative is unique to Holmes though. Talk to Foster about "the Perrin document" sometime...he has a plausible theory that it's a missing link between OD&D, Holmes, and Arduin that explains some of the things that are different...

[Finarvyn]

This is an amazing thread. While I can analyze a few of my favorite authors and see distinct differences in style, apparenly my brain doesn't see all of the subtle stuff that many of you guys have seen in terms of all of the OD&D authors and the people who influenced them.

I almost didn't start this thread because I wasn't sure anyone would have anything to say on the subject, and we're onto page #2 already!

This is good stuff!

[casey777]

The first time I saw that it really brought home the step and half between OD&D & RQI/II. Add in hit locations, proportional HP, and the houserule of stat x 1 through 5 on % dice for impromptu checks and you're nearly there.

(correction: the last is already there: "the basic dexterity roll is a simple roll of 5% per point of dexterity")

[James Maliszewski]

casey777 said:

The first time I saw that it really brought home the step and half between OD&D & RQI/II. Add in hit locations, proportional HP, and the houserule of stat x 1 through 5 on % dice for impromptu checks and you're nearly there.

Very much so. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that RuneQuest (the rules -- what would eventually become Basic Roleplaying) began life as a hack of OD&D. In fact, I'd not be the least bit surprised if Steve Perrin got the job of designing the RQ rules on the strength of the Perrin Conventions, though I can't corroborate this.

[foster1941]

jamesm said:

In fact, I'd not be the least bit surprised if Steve Perrin got the job of designing the RQ rules on the strength of the Perrin Conventions, though I can't corroborate this.

Steve has confirmed (somewhere in an online Q&A/interview -- the Acaeum, maybe, or perhaps RPGNet?) that this is exactly the case.

[James Maliszewski]

foster1941 said:

Steve has confirmed (somewhere in an online Q&A/interview -- the Acaeum, maybe, or perhaps RPGNet?) that this is exactly the case.

Nice to know my instincts are occasionally spot-on

If you ever come across the confirmation somewhere on the web or elsewhere, please make note of it. I'd be very interested in hearing what else he has to say on the origins of the RQ rules.

[foster1941]

jamesm said:

Nice to know my instincts are occasionally spot-on

If you ever come across the confirmation somewhere on the web or elsewhere, please make note of it. I'd be very interested in hearing what else he has to say on the origins of the RQ rules.

Here ya go

[James Maliszewski]

foster1941 said:

Here ya go

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Many thanks!

[Rhuvein]

melan said:

Someone should do an interview with that guy. A Q&A thread on DF probably wouldn't work so well, although of course if James "Angry Mothers from Heck" Ward wasn't run off the site, maybe he wouldn't be either.

Hi Melan. Just curious, what do you mean by your above comment??

Thanks,

Rhu. ;D

[Melan]

Rhuvein --
a) Brian Blume is vilified by several people for ancient gaming grudges; therefore, a thread focusing on his thoughts about D&D would probably end in flames on DF;
b) James Ward, who was in many ways directly responsible for AD&D's sanitisation in the late 1e and 2e era (and stands by his decisions), is given a free pass because he is considered "cool" for some reason.

[James Maliszewski]

melan said:

a) Brian Blume is vilified by several people for ancient gaming grudges; therefore, a thread focusing on his thoughts about D&D would probably end in flames on DF;
b) James Ward, who was in many ways directly responsible for AD&D's sanitisation in the late 1e and 2e era (and stands by his decisions), is given a free pass because he is considered "cool" for some reason.

I expect that Jim Ward gets a free pass because he created Gamma World and lots of gamers have very fond memories of it. As for Blume, the "ancient grudges" have been stoked for decades, particularly since Gygax was forced out of TSR, and lots of people have an unthinking dislike of him because of that. Now I'm not saying the dislike is necessarily undeserved, but I bet many, if not most, of the gamers who dislike him could go into specifics about why he's deemed such a villain.

[Falconer]

I would give Blume “a pass” on the basis of Warriors of Mars, Boot Hill, and Eldritch Wizardry. Why would I as a fan have to take sides against people? Rob and Gary don’t get along lately but they both have done good writing. I also like Tracy Hickman (who by the way still runs 1e), Zeb Cook, Jeff Grubb, Frank Mentzer... and EVEN Dave Arneson!

Jim Ward and Tim Kask I have gotten bad vibes from in person. *shrug*