"He's dead, Jim."

[Finarvyn]

ant said:

While we joked about how deadly the game would be I was concerned about PC attrition (and this was just a one-shot session after all). To mitigate the risk of being a little too harsh I used the following rules (some of these probably look familiar):

• Unconscious at 0hp
  
• Death at -2hp (for 1st level characters, -3hp for second level etc)
  
• Each player had two characters, one of which was standing by in reserve.
  
• Healing kits were available for purchase for 50gp that would allow PCs to bandage wounds, healing 1d4 hp on a successful Wisdom check. This could only be done once per PC after each battle (until the kit ran out).

However I also wanted death to be a little scary and didn't want everyone to have max hitpoints so I added the following:

• Fighting-Men had max hp at 1st level (and received double the usual Con bonus)
  
• Clerics had 3+d3 hp at 1st level (plus regular Con bonus)
  
• Magic-users and thieves* had 1d6 hp (plus regular Con bonus)

*Note that I was initially going to disallow thieves in an effort to stick more to the 3LBs but ultimately I figured, what the heck.

Okay, so Ant told us how he handles character death. How 'bout the rest of us?

When I run a game for youngsters or newbies, I often decide that 0 HP is "unconscious" rather than dead. That's to keep them from being too traumatized. On the other hand, maybe it's not so bad to teach them that it's okay for characters to die occasionally. I remember playing in a game where I told the GM on the side "if you're gonna kill anyone today, let it be me first. That way I can react well and show the kids that it's okay."

I also like the rule that you can go to a negative number of HP equal to the character's level.

In general it seems to hinge upon the amount of healing magic and reviving spells out there -- if no one can ever heal I tend to relax the "dead" thing a little more.

Anyone else?

[Deleted]

0=Dead. No questions. Period. Dead Men Tell No Tales. ;D

[coffee]

I don't see it much (and I really don't remember where I saw it first), but I've always liked the rule about negative hit points being equal to your CON score.

So, if the wimpy Mage with an 8 Con drops, he can go to -8. But the buff Fighter with the 16 Con can go to -16.

But hey, that's just me.

[ffilz]

I've always liked some kind of unconsciousness zone. It makes for some interesting tactics and choices in a fight that's going badly for the PCs. Do they try to save their buddy or cut and run.

For D&D, I really like the rule in Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed/Evolved where a character is unconscious if at 0 hp up to -con bonus (if its a bonus), and dying from there to -constitution. The one problem this has is when damage escalates, but that's not quite such an issue with OD&D compared to D20 (of course without Greyhawk con bonus is +1 at best, with Greyhawk the best is +3). If you added level (or just hit dice) to this, it might provide a little breathing room for increasing damage at higher levels, you could allow fighters to add twice level (and perhaps clerics 1.5x level).

For a homebrew I played in college, characters were unconcsious from 0 to -1/2hp, and dying below that. They had to be healed up to at least -1/4 soon after battle. If they were below -1/2, special healing was necessary. But that system had open ended crits so even high level PCs could be felled in a single blow. I wouldn't reccomend such a system for D&D without some kind of crits otherwise at higher level, PCs are only at risk of death in most encounters if the monsters chomp on their unconscious bodies.

Frank

[ant]

What was interesting about the system that we used (see the first post) was that the players with fighting men quickly realised that, at full hps, it was highly unlikely that they'd die in the first hit. This tended to encourage some bravado and derring-do, which was cool.

It was also cool to see how the "weaker" classes acted in combat. In fact, the tactics that the players used brought a smile to my face more than once.

[Finarvyn]

The thing I like about not dying at zero HP is the fact that characters can be knocked out and come back again. Characters almost never surrender in any game I've DM'ed, and having every fight be to the death really takes some of the fun options out of the game. I'd like for my characters to wake up in jail occasionally so that I can use it as a plot device.

[Deleted]

You're right Fin, knock-outs are a good plot-driving device. The way I handle this IMC is: d10% + strength score (i.e., Rolf, a Fighting-Man with a strength score of 13, would leverage a 23% chance on a victim to resist a knock-out). No HP loss, just a nap for the victim. Very simplistic, but has always worked well for me & my players. Still offers the same "subdual" opportunities, while keeping with my 0=Dead philosophy. Since I always grant max HP at 1st level (even though I now make players roll for HP at every succeeding level, as opposed to an average I have used for years), + allowing lawful clerics to cast raide dead spells, I would say the PC's have a pretty fair shake at pursuing a successful adventuring career. But, that's just me.

[Zulgyan]

In Jugdes Guild's "Ready Ref Sheet" a cool an simple system is presented in page -13-, option 2):

Roll 2 dice and substract the numer of hit points below zero he is. The other players now have this many turns to get to the mortally wounded player with potions, etc. Again the player with 0 or below hit points cannot do anything.

[Stonegiant]

In my next campaign I am planning on using the -1-the PC's level in negative HP before death.

[jrients]

Here's a chart I made a while back. I used it for a con one shot and I thought it went well. I wanted more knocked out PCs, long convalescences, and permanent wounds, with less outright death. Also, negative hit points annoy me.

Death's Door

PC's and important NPCs roll on this chart when their supply of hit points have been completely exhausted. First level PCs add one to their roll.

1. Dead. Only Raise Dead or Reincarnation can help now.

2. Mostly Dead, as in The Princess Bride. Character can take no actions until roused by magic. Cure Light Wounds or a healing potion each have a 50% chance of working. Each of these methods may only be tried once. Cure Serious Wounds always works. Revived characters are -4 on to-hits, saves, and damage for d12 days.

3. Major Wound. Knocked unconscious for 3d6 turns. Loss of d6 stat points, each coming off a random stat. Total debilitation for d6 months, after which stat loss heals at one point per month of complete rest, except for the last point of stat loss, which is permanent. Cure Serious Wounds turns the months of recovery into weeks but otherwise provides no further assistance.

4. Internal damage and bleeding. Unconscious. Must save versus Death Ray every round for d6 rounds then every turn for d6 turns, then every hour for d6 hours. Any failed save results in death. Any cure spell or healing potion halts the bleeding, allowing the character to regain consciousness with one hit point. Someone taking 1 round and rolling Wis or lower on d20 slows the bleeding, bumping the check interval to turns/hours/days. After such a wound hit points heal naturally at a weekly rather than daily rate until the character is fully restored.

5. Knocked out. Awaken d6 turns later with one hit point. All attacks, damage rolls, and saves are at -2 until the character gets d12 days of rest.

6-7. Close call. Character still has 1 hit point. No further effect.

[WSmith]

That is an interesting table, jrients, and I think good for a campaign. However the convalescent times see a little too long for shorter one shots or mini campaigns. I think if it were me, I would redesign the table to use a bell curve. I will agree that I have lost interest in negative HPs.

[jrients]

Yeah, the table was actually designed for campaign play. I only busted it out at that con the first time a PC died because I thought it would be fun if the player got a die roll of some sort to avoid losing the PC.

[philotomy]

I like this approach, too. I may switch to something like this instead of negative hit points.

[ffilz]

Hmm, interesting idea. A simpler idea:

If a character is reduced below 1 hp, the character must make a save vs death ray. If the save is made, the character is unconscious for 1d6 turns. A cure spell will revive the character immediately with that many hit points, otherwise the character will wake up with 1 hit point.

It might be nice to adjust the save based on the form of death. Poisons and death rays themselves of course would kill the character outright (though perhaps low level creatures poison could give a 2nd chance save).

Frank

[philotomy]

That's a nice variation, too, and it takes PC level into account through the saving throw mechanism.

[dwayanu]

More theoretical than reflection of how I've handled it in D&D games past, but ...

I like the AD&D (DMG p. 82) rule. Inserting a state of disability between the quick and the dead broadens tactical and roleplaying possibilities. It also softens the blow to willing suspension of disbelief when Our Hero (not slowed at all by perils enough to kill however many normal men) gets laid low by a last 1-point nip.

The schemes I've seen to hinder him along the way do not suit me.

Keeping the -3 threshold with d6 damage gives a 50% chance of surviving (with assistance) a hit when down to 1 point beforehand*. I might even withold the "bleeding to death" risk (and recovery time?) unless brought past -1. Having in mind the frequency in fiction of "knockouts" without the dire consequences of concussion (and the aforementioned game factor of 1-point wounds), a 2-point buffer may be meet. If unarmed brawling does less than 4 points, then it won't accidentally and instantly kill a conscious foe.

Getting confined to sickbed for a week or more can be a significant penalty. Lacking access to resurrection, a player retains a vested interest in a character that (who?) would otherwise be "written off." Gary's suggestion that -6 or worse could indicate scarring or maiming adds "flavor" to survivors of such straits. It seems to me in keeping with the "feel" imparted by level drains from undead.

I'm not so keen on basing -n on experience level.

* error; see later post

[makofan]

In my campaign, negative is dead, zero hit points is unconscious. But, they can't move even if awoken until their hit points become positive again (their wounds are too grievous/debilitating). Now the party has a dilemma! What to do about their useless friend?

[tgamemaster1975]

makofan said:

In my campaign, negative is dead, zero hit points is unconscious. But, they can\'t move even if awoken until their hit points become positive again (their wounds are too grievous/debilitating). Now the party has a dilemma! What to do about their useless friend?

I have always played zero hit points is dead but after reading this thread, I am going to try makofan does instead, and I am considering trying some of the negative hit point options later on. It is time for a change.

[doc]

I use zero as unconscious and neg con for dead (the fallen character bleeds out at 1 HP per round until death). There is a specific reason for this: When a character goes down, his compatriots know that there is only a small window of opportunity to get to him and keep him from death. Thus, not only does the current battle become one of us vs. them, but also us vs. Time. It adds an element of urgency that would not be there if the players knew that their fallen companion was already completely gone.

Doc

[tgamemaster1975]

Doc you make an excellent point there. That is something that I never really considered.

[Deleted]

Indeed, doc. I never quite thought about it in that way either.

[crimhthanthegreat]

Doc, you have just proved that this forum is the place that can teach an old dog new tricks. I had never considered that, but that is the best argument for using negative hit points I have ever read. I am going to think about that some and see what I want to try IMC. That is just an excellent insight. Have an Exalt for that. (I have done that once per hour but you get one just as soon as I can give one in about 45 min. ;D )Edit: (and awarded)

[ffilz]

Doc, that is a good point about the negative hit point systems. I'm planning on trying the save vs. death suggestion above, but perhaps that could also come with a time ticker (hmm, perhaps the time ticker is a number of rounds equal to how much you made the save by (+1)).

Frank

[dwayanu]

That additional tactical concern is the main reason I like to have a state between "quick" and "dead." IIRC, snipers in war (e.g., WW2 Japanese, Viet Cong) have made use of it. I referred above to the AD&D rule; here's an explanation of that.

If the attack that reduced a character to 0 hp brings hp down to -4 or worse, then the character is killed outright. Otherwise, the victim is unconscious and there's a loss of 1 hp per round until receiving aid (binding wounds, etc., which takes but a round). If hp fall to -10, the victim dies.

Note that an unconscious character can be slain with a coup de grace, obviating hit and damage rolls. A character brought to 0 hp or below remains comatose for 1-6 turns, and afterward requires a minimum of a week's rest -- no significant activity allowed.

BTW, I erred earlier. Keeping the -3 threshold with 1d6 damage gives only a 1/3 chance of an instant kill starting with 1 hp left.