"Saga style" Paradigm

[korgoth]

The basic paradigm of a D&D adventure is the dungeon foray or other such adventure, wherein the PCs rack up kills and grab up swag, all of which goes to their ultimate XP total and thus allows them to gain levels. And that is all well and good.

However, I was thinking in a literary vein about characters like Beowulf and Conan (8th level chaps, I'm saying), or even more modest heroes such as Gunnar Hamundarson or Theseus (I'll call them 4th level chaps). These guys have a few adventures, but they don't rack up the body count of your typical D&D character.

(Actually, it reminds me of comparing Audie Murphy to the main character in a computer game like Medal of Honor: in the latter, you end up killing hundreds if not thousands of nazzies single-handedly!)

Let's suppose that one tried to imitate heroic literature... I'll call it "Saga style". How would one do it? I was thinking that XP would be eliminated entirely. Instead, the main character would level up after successfully completing an adventure or short campaign (DM's discretion). For instance, a '0-level' Normal Man becomes a 1st level Veteran by surviving a campaign. An adventurer completing a series of forays against some Dvergar, successfully stopping their depredations, earns him a level. Beating a troll or two (such as Grendel and his mom) also earns you level. And so on.

Any thoughts on this? I suppose one thing is that you would have to change the level minima for founding a stronghold, because practically nobody will be that high level. Second, I think probably only Fighting Men (also Thieves if you use them) are really suited to this type of play.

Of course, group play is unlike a traditional saga in that it would have more main characters (usually it seems like there are only one or two, and everybody else is an NPC type). Anyway, just to put all that out there for comment.

[driver]

Some games have suggestions for simulating the march of years, and encouraging PCs to pay some attention to posterity, heirs, and so on. For instance, Pendragon suggests that adventures take place at a typical rate of one per year, with the calendar advancing in between. Events still take place in the background, characters age, and so on.

I'm considering something like this for my next campaign -- my current campaign is fairly dungeon-oriented, and this sort of thing is ill-suited for that. But I think it lends itself to "epic" or "saga" campaigns.

PCs would certainly level more slowly. The (presumably longer) lifespan of non-humans may actually become meaningful in some campaigns, and mitigate the effects of level limits. Meanwhile, human PCs can be starting families and dynasties, and watching their heirs grow. There could be long wars, plagues, trade embargos, and so on, going on whether or not the PCs are actively involved.

Seems kind of cool to me.

[busman]

I think epic games can be really fun and very enjoyable.

My brother, one of my best friends growing up and myself each were the head of a household that we ended up playing the kids, grandkids and great-grandkids of over time.

Some of the best nights were sitting down and planning out the next generations of the big three families. My family was a line of Dwarves, my brother started with a paladin, and my friend's initial character was a Monk. I, also, had an Elf that adventured with each generation of one of the families.

I'm not sure changing the levels that a character can reach to be very low would be as interesting an option as maybe changing the power that characters can reach over the course of levels. Going up a level is a powerful reward and enticement for both players and DMs. Reducing that to only a very small handful of those bumps over the course of a lifetime of a character seems like you'd be taking away one of the big pluses of D&D.

What's the goal of the experiment?

[korgoth]

Apr 9, 2008 20:51:27 GMT -6 busman said:

What's the goal of the experiment?

To keep with the level scale and capabilities in OD&D or B/X D&D (4th level is a Hero, 8th level a Superhero, a troll is about 6HD and thus is a fairly epic monster on its own) but to have the pace and tone of a Norse saga (relatively fewer adventures against relatively fewer foes, emphasis on character interactions, travel, etc.).

For example, the party is in Juteland having won favor by helping the king of the Jutes settle a dispute with the Frisians (they won a Holmgang or something). They hear the tale of a terrible troll terrorizing the folk of East Anglia. So they undertake a treacherous sea voyage, maybe dealing with a sea monster on the way, to get to the British coast. When they get there, there is an adventure to deal with the troll (and whatever other complications). The whole thing in retrospect could read like a saga.

Minor fights and whatnot could take place on the way, but the level up only comes when the 'mission' is brought to successful conclusion. Of course, if they're unsuccessful the DM can always throw out another hook or two and see what direction they want to go: there's a giant ravaging Pictland (if you actually want to go way the heck up to Pictland, and deal with Picts!), and there's also some kind of ghost troubling some abbey in Northumbria, if that somehow sounds better.

Not that it has to be in "Viking Land". I'm just using that as an easy example. But I'd like to keep the scope of the campaign within the established levels (no higher than 10), and with the established scale of the critters. That is, the notion isn't that "beyond level 20 are the Epic Levels!"... rather, "beyond level 3 are the epic levels!".

[Stonegiant]

One idea might be that the source of the character's xps changes as they gain levels, e.g. 1st level: standard xp method, 4th level: would change to a more heroic standard (maybe monsters are worth more, gain xps somehow for their fame/infamy, etc.), 8th level the xps come from epic quests, the founding and managing a domain/temple/guild/wizard's tower, etc. Thus the earning of xps reflects what the character's should be doing at that level. How well this would work, I don't know but it could be interesting and would give the DM another carrot to wave in front of the characters, instead of just upping the gold and monster strength.

[busman]

It sounds more like you're shooting for B/X. OD&D is open ended, going so far as to establish rules as how the player can scale up the charts past the 10-16 levels or so shown already to "no theoretical limit."

That said, I get where you're going, you want to stay truer to the form of Hero and Superhero, basically.

I'd think having minor fights, would be key to keeping it out of the realms of Universalis (a fine game if what you are looking for is almost exclusively interactive storytelling).

I'd also be careful with going for 4 levels for ever. Again, I go to rewards/enticement for players. Progression is important, in some manner. If it's not going to be levels, it will more than likely be items, though if we are going with just about anyone but Perseus, I suspect you're going to be going for low magic as well.

Unless you make going up a level more of a leap forward than it is right now, which could make things quite different in tone and give you some wiggle room for a sense of advancement.

I think the biggest pitfall to avoid is it bogging down and feeling ponderous to do anything.

I've certainly played many a game where a character has made it to 3rd level and never killed a single person or left much more than a 1 mile radius of a large city. And while it was a lot of fun as one of many campaigns, if it were my only campaign, I think I would have grown weary of it.

(EDIT: uber = ever)

[philotomy]

I think it sounds like a cool (and fun) approach. I don't think a lack of progression will be important, because it doesn't sound like an long-lasting campaign, but more like a saga. That is, I'd approach it more like a "mini-series" and retire the PC(s) at the end of the saga -- their "tale" is done.

I've done something like this, but without the increased progression (which I think is an excellent idea). At the time, I used True20 (I was experimenting with different systems). I ran several mini-series "story arcs" based on fantasy-history (an ancient Greece expedition/voyage to Colchis, Vikings in the New World, and bronze-age Levant in the time of the Judges).

[BeZurKur]

I think this is an awesome idea! It can totally work because of what Korgoth said here:

Apr 9, 2008 21:34:59 GMT -6 korgoth said:

The whole thing in retrospect could read like a saga.

The key there is that looking back one can interpret and recognize key elements to be in the saga style, but during play, it should still feel like D&D. If that is accurate, then we should not move to another game system. Otherwise, I agree a more story-telling game, such as Universalis, Hero’s Banner, or even Prime-Time Adventures would be a better fit for telling a story during play that has that saga style.

If we are looking to keep the D&D feel, then we shouldn’t mess too much with the underlying mechanics that define the game, such as XP for gold. Fortunately, Beowulf is one of the few literary examples that operate with that model. In D&D, wealth = power; in Beowulf, wealth = fame & power. What needs to change is the placement and distribution of that wealth to give it the saga style. To properly convey the saga feel, there also needs to be a friendly competition for the pursuit of fame and wealth. Finally, we need to add a fame mechanic.

Placement
There may be challenges along the way, but it is the accomplishment of the major goal that brings the big reward of wealth/power. That reward can be the monster’s hoard or the promise of wealth by a king for defeating the monster. In either case, the big payoff comes at the end. There must be a pay-off because the wealth is the proof and the bulk of XP. Challenges along the way are to make getting to the final confrontation difficult. They are not reason enough for the adventure, so there shouldn’t be much treasure with them.

Competition and Wealth Distribution
With the grand epics of literature, there is usually that one figure that stands above the others. It should be the goal of each party member to be that person. Following the wealth = power model, the caller of the group is always the person with the most XP – not levels, but actual experience points. He decides everything, including the distribution of wealth! The DM and caller should discuss how it gets split, but the other players don’t have much of a say. The only reason the DM gets involved is to make sure the caller is awarding the wealth (and XP) appropriately.

I like this because it makes the caller want to go on missions appropriate to his level. Anything lower and he gets a fraction of the XP, such as a 3rd level character receiving only 1/3 the XP for the treasure a 1st level skeleton was guarding. Meanwhile, the others quickly catch up. Of course, if a 4 hit-die ogre kills the 3rd level character, then someone else becomes the protagonist!

Fame and Boast Mechanic
Up to this point, everything was working with the existing rules. To make fame important, we need to add a mechanic. Still, I think it should build upon existing mechanics without getting too radical in order to keep the D&D feel. If the player wants to know if he is recognized or if he tries to gain favor from someone, it should be the standard 2-5 d6 roll against Charisma. He also gets to add his level to the base score: power (level) = fame. This maps well with Korgoth’s idea of Hero and Superhero because a 4th level character, on the average, cancels out one die. An 8th level superhero cancels out two dice. By the same token, higher level characters are less likely to be impressed. If the player is trying to convince an NPC of something he’d normally be against, subtract the NPC level from the score. Last, we need boasting. If the player can name off his prior victories, he get a +1 bonus for each. The DM decides if the boast is worth the bonus.

[foster1941]

I think the best way to do such a game in D&D (as opposed to, say, just playing RuneQuest) would be to eliminate levels and XP altogether. Characters in the sagas don't generally seem to change much in power and fighting ability over the course of the saga (except with age). The standard character would be a Hero and have the ability to acquire a household/barony/entourage like a Lord. Optionally, the character could be a Superhero but not have the ability to be a baron or gather an entourage -- trading concentrated personal power for the combined power of the community (a very HeroQuest-y idea). Clerics would be Bishops with the bonuses of Patrirachs regarding strongholds and followers. In fitting with the lower-magic feel of the sagas I'd suggest that the clerics' spells only be usable on a weekly, monthly, or even yearly basis rather than daily. Magic-users probably don't really fit into such a game at all; if they do they are the one exception where some sort of advancement scheme is probably still in order (though not the BtB killing-things-and-stuff-taking D&D one; perhaps a system based structly on age -- 1 year to go from 1st to 2nd level, 2 more years to go from 2nd to 3rd, then 3 more to go from 3rd to 4th, etc. -- meaning that all high-level mages would be very old (and likely dependant on age-retarding magic of some kind)). Dwarfs would be Heroes without the Lord abilities, elves would be Hero/Theurgists without the Lord abilities or advancement potential of human mages.

You'd want to create some sort of system (perhaps inspired by Pendragon) for large-scale time passing, to reflect that there will rarely be more than one adventure in a year, and very well might be several years between adventures, during which time the Heroes and Bishops will tend their steads and raise families (who will eventually supplant them), the Superheroes will remain legendary outsiders who grow older and more dangerous (think Pratchett's Cohen the Barbarian ) but leave nothing permanent behind, the Mages will grow stranger and more inscrutable, and the non-humans will always remain exactly the same.

I would totally play in such a campaign!

[redpriest]

I think the Saga game kinda happens already. Just start your characters at high level. This just seems to be the type of game that you'd normally see at high level. The PCs have survived to name level and live fat most of the time off of their respective keeps. Occasionally, they will still go out on The Big One, because they're the only ones that can do it. It takes a high prize to prise a high level character from the farming good life. The PCs have risen above the scrimping to get by stage and no longer need the day-to-day delving of low to mid level characters, and so the adventures are less frequent and stakes and payoffs are higher.

So, I'm fuzzy on the difference between the Saga game and just your average high level D&D game.

[foster1941]

I think that's exactly right regarding the dynamic of play, but the point (at least as I understood it) was that korgoth is looking to create that dynamic of play at the power-levels associated with lower-level characters -- where a single ogre or troll is a tough challenge, a dragon a likely TPK, clerics can't raise dead characters or speak directly to the gods at will, mages can't just teleport the party wherever they need to go, etc.

[coffee]

I think such a thing could be a blast.

I also think you'd have to carefully explain things to your players ahead of time. Players get really, really steamed when the game doesn't progress the way they expect it to.

I, for one, would love to play such a game. It would be a nice contrast to my last 3.5 game, where we saved the world every week (we were all 20th level and the challenges were more like bothers; the DM just fed us more in a row to pad out the adventure.)

[Stonegiant]

Apr 10, 2008 10:47:29 GMT -6 foster1941 said:

I think the best way to do such a game in D&D (as opposed to, say, just playing RuneQuest) would be to eliminate levels and XP altogether. Characters in the sagas don't generally seem to change much in power and fighting ability over the course of the saga (except with age). The standard character would be a Hero and have the ability to acquire a household/barony/entourage like a Lord. Optionally, the character could be a Superhero but not have the ability to be a baron or gather an entourage -- trading concentrated personal power for the combined power of the community (a very HeroQuest-y idea). Clerics would be Bishops with the bonuses of Patrirachs regarding strongholds and followers. In fitting with the lower-magic feel of the sagas I'd suggest that the clerics' spells only be usable on a weekly, monthly, or even yearly basis rather than daily. Magic-users probably don't really fit into such a game at all; if they do they are the one exception where some sort of advancement scheme is probably still in order (though not the BtB killing-things-and-stuff-taking D&D one; perhaps a system based structly on age -- 1 year to go from 1st to 2nd level, 2 more years to go from 2nd to 3rd, then 3 more to go from 3rd to 4th, etc. -- meaning that all high-level mages would be very old (and likely dependant on age-retarding magic of some kind)). Dwarfs would be Heroes without the Lord abilities, elves would be Hero/Theurgists without the Lord abilities or advancement potential of human mages.

You'd want to create some sort of system (perhaps inspired by Pendragon) for large-scale time passing, to reflect that there will rarely be more than one adventure in a year, and very well might be several years between adventures, during which time the Heroes and Bishops will tend their steads and raise families (who will eventually supplant them), the Superheroes will remain legendary outsiders who grow older and more dangerous (think Pratchett's Cohen the Barbarian ) but leave nothing permanent behind, the Mages will grow stranger and more inscrutable, and the non-humans will always remain exactly the same.

I would totally play in such a campaign!

Maybe the thing to do would be to base the Hit points and experience system off of one similar to that used in Gamma World. That way the characters wouldn't change much and the level changes could tweak powers and social position but wouldn't be as drastic as in standard OD&D.

I think this model would definitely work well with the Pendragon style campaign. You could also let players use their xps to advance/buy features (expand land holdings, attract more faithful, gain spells, etc.)