Get off my lawn!

[drskull]

Okay, I found myself playing in a very non-old school game the other day. Most of the players were old folks like me, but we had a couple of 18 year old kids too.

There was as clear as possible an old school/new school illustration as one could imagine.

We captured a goblin alive for questioning.
Young kid 1 said "I roll Intimidate"
Young kid 2 said "I roll Diplomacy"
And then they just sat there.

I had to step up and actually, like, talk to the goblin and try to make a deal with it. Sigh. Uggh. Fruttzz. Kids today, get off my lawn!!!!

There was another event I want to talk about, but I don't know if it is an old school question or not.

These goblins had us surrounded in an abandoned temple. One other player and I wanted to charge out and take the fight to them. The other panty-waist, baby-men wanted to let the goblins come to us so they'd be squeezed coming through the door.

We tried to explain that we realized that we'd have an advantage if we let them come in, but sometimes you don't do things to get an advantage, you do things BECAUSE THEY"RE COOL! We were out-voted and did things the safe way, but I just felt like asking, are you adventurers or accountants?

[joethulhu]

Aug 5, 2008 9:12:07 GMT -6 drskull said:

We were out-voted and did things the safe way, but I just felt like asking, are you adventurers or accountants?

Considering I prefer lethal Gygaxian style gaming, I play my characters like they are accountants. I don't want to start over at 0 XP. ;D

[Random]

Agreeing with the OP, I performed a similar action in our Holmes PBP, standing in an archway like some kind of bad mofo, only to be overrun and killed.

It was pretty fun, although I was only 1st level.

Now I've rolled up a daring thief who is likely doomed to a similar fate.

[oldgeezer]

If you did the "cool" thing rather than the "smart" thing when Gary, Dave, or Rob Kuntz were reffing, you'd get handed your ass in a bucket.

To me, "I'm cool!" rather than "I'm smart!" is very NON old-school.

[driver]

Aug 5, 2008 9:12:07 GMT -6 drskull said:

We tried to explain that we realized that we'd have an advantage if we let them come in, but sometimes you don't do things to get an advantage, you do things BECAUSE THEY"RE COOL! We were out-voted and did things the safe way, but I just felt like asking, are you adventurers or accountants?

I personally think the obsession with doing things "because they're cool" is exactly opposite of old school ... in my experience, to survive old school dungeons, you play smart, not cool. It's cool to jump into the Sphere of Annihilation in the Tomb of Horrors, but it's smarter to establish a rear contingent, load up on Divinations, and go through everything meticulously.

There are 10' poles on the equipment list for a reason.

EDIT: Beaten to the punch by oldgeezer.

[drskull]

Let me re-phrase a bit. It was so much that they were being "smart", but rather, they were afraid. And I could smell their filthy fear and it disgusted me. A new school player wants to be cool and be assured he won't lose because of it.

I realize that when you take the bolder action, the risk is higher and you might end up losing, but its better to lose big than win small.

All a DM can do is kill you. Only you can make yourself a coward.

[foster1941]

I've never played with Dave Arneson so maybe his method is different (and reputation does portray his games as being even more deadly than Gary's) but from both playing with (admittedly only twice at cons, not regularly over several years like the OG) and obsessively reading accounts of others playing with Gary the impression I've come away with is that while he absolutely wanted players to be smart, he every bit as importantly wanted them to be active and decisive -- a bad decision will get you killed either way, but a good decision now is better than a great decision 15 minutes from now. The party that stands in the hallway discussing the best method for dealing with a trap is going to get harrassed by wandering monsters; the guy who, when it's his turn in combat, tries to figure out all the possible maneuvers and the attendant benefits and drawbacks of each is going to get skipped and lose his turn. It's not just the ability to make clever and tactically sound choices, it's the ability to do so quickly and decisively, when the pressure is on. You don't get 15 minutes to come up with the right move, you get 10 seconds (if you're lucky)!

Please correct me if I'm smoking crack here, OG

[mythmere]

Ancient Greek tragedy follows a progression from Kouros (rightful or appropriate pride) to hubris (overweening pride) to Ate (vengeance of the gods). I have mastered hubris at second level and higher, and getting hit with Ate from first level and higher, but so far my best attempts at Kouros have mainly been episodes of leg-wetting fear at first level (replaced with hubris at second level). That's because I usually play the magic user. I don't think it has to with old school or new school, I think it has to do with whether there's someone else in the party with a slower movement rate than me.

[Random]

From what I understand of the OP's situation, the party was surrounded in a small structure by a lot of goblins who apparently were stupid enough to walk through the doorway one by one.

That party would likely be toast in one of my games (having a crap load of goblins guarding their only exit).

So, I'll agree that charging them would not only have been cool, but allowed for some of the party to potentially escape.

[kesher]

Aug 5, 2008 9:53:59 GMT -6 drskull said:

A new school player wants to be cool and be assured he won't lose because of it.

Well-said. I think that's an important distinction. The thrill lies in running out there and risking the Gods of Fate on the possibilities of a string of 20s...

[Random]

Agreed. I think it's okay to play "cool," so long as you don't reasonably expect success when logic dictates you should get stomped.

[oldgeezer]

Aug 5, 2008 9:53:59 GMT -6 drskull said:

Let me re-phrase a bit. It was so much that they were being "smart", but rather, they were afraid. And I could smell their filthy fear and it disgusted me. A new school player wants to be cool and be assured he won't lose because of it.

I realize that when you take the bolder action, the risk is higher and you might end up losing, but its better to lose big than win small.

All a DM can do is kill you. Only you can make yourself a coward.

Yes.

Yes, yes, yes.

Yes.

[oldgeezer]

Aug 5, 2008 11:30:38 GMT -6 foster1941 said:

playing with Gary the impression I've come away with is that while he absolutely wanted players to be smart, he every bit as importantly wanted them to be active and decisive -- a bad decision will get you killed either way, but a good decision now is better than a great decision 15 minutes from now.

ABSOLUTELY!!!

[Deleted]

Aug 5, 2008 9:53:59 GMT -6 drskull said:

All a DM can do is kill you. Only you can make yourself a coward.

nah, the referee and the other players can laugh at you too.

sometimes decisive action is needed. true, it was safer to wait for the goblins to come. but perhaps, they were waiting too. waiting for more powerful reinforcements. like say the ogre in the caves of chaos.

what you need to do is gauge the risk.

don't always plunge head first into the mouth at the end of the corridor.

but also don't stand around waiting for the referee to get bored.

[redpriest]

There are two different types of waiting being discussed, and the OP doesn't differentiate them. There's waiting as a positive action, and then there is procrastination from indecision. Even choosing to wait out of fear is a positive choice, if it's made quickly and decisively.

If it were a conscious effort to try and wait out the goblins, then I can't fault that tactic. A small victory is better than dead. Of course, through waiting, you then have to be willing to revisit your decision, maybe more than once, as you wait. Maybe what was a good idea 3 turns, 3 hours or 3 days ago, isn't a good idea for now.

If you charge out just to attack for the glory of it, then what happens, happens, and the bards may never sing of your glorious defeat, because it was probably a TPK and no one knows about it and so, no one cares.

We only know of Conan because he was the exception. How many PCs rise to the level of Conan, Kane or Kull? No, our avatars are more like the Black Company.

[korgoth]

On the first point, I quite agree about the whole "I roll Diplomacy". Sucks the life right out of the game at that point. Not my style at all (I say save the dice for combat as much as possible).

On the second point, I would almost surely have counseled waiting for the Goblins, all other things being equal. If you're outnumbered and have a defensive position, of course you let the enemy come to you if possible. That's basic tactics. People who don't use basic tactics in my games will probably end up with butchered characters!

[Deleted]

As Bilbo would say, I am as half as old as the youngest half of you.Maybe even younger. ;D So my opinions probably criticaly fail.
But I must agree with drskull.What has drawn me to old school rpging is not the way mr Gygax or mr Arneson DMed their games, nor is it the deadliness and seriousness of challenges, but the freewheeling spirit of the old games, the "anything goes with as few rolls" attitude and the emphasis on imagination, not on realism or winning an Oscar. ;D
Sure, you will probably die storming a pack of goblins, but who cares?You will have a blast, reenacting that favorite heroic moment from that super cool fantasy movie or book, and a stupid, but heroic death.On the other hand, you might scare the goblins and survive.Who knows?You can roll up a new character in 2 minutes and just continue.Death is just a bathroom break. ;D

Please excuse my english, it is not my native language.

[kesher]

Death is just a bathroom break.

Okay. Now THAT'S a quote to live by!

[oldgamergeek]

I hate , loathe , despise roll diplomacy , roll intimidation , roll blow nose , get out of chair these young kids roll play instead of role play that is why I am still old school .