Bard
Level 3 Conjurer
The dice never lie.
Posts: 87
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Post by Bard on Jul 25, 2008 9:16:36 GMT -6
So, the club, where I started to play ad&d, had a DM test. These tests stopped before I joined, so I've only heard about them. The deal was, that if you wanted to be a Dungeon Master in the area of the club, you had to take a test. First you had to read The Lord of the Rings. Second, you had to DM for the leaders of the club. They tried to make the session difficult for you, for example they tried to cheat and so on. I always thought that this was silly, this game is not about this, but now, in the Frank Mentzer Q&A Thread at Dragonsfoot, I'm reading this:
So they did the exact same procedure back in 1980... Of course, it was a competition, and not a regular d&d club...
Gary said (somewhere at Dragonsfoot too), that the hobby needs more good DM-s, and not new games. So I think it's an interesting topic.
What are your thoughts?
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Post by jimlotfp on Jul 25, 2008 9:38:25 GMT -6
First you had to read The Lord of the Rings. I love Tolkien to death but that's a big ol' FAIL for a D&D test qualification. |
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Post by kesher on Jul 25, 2008 9:44:09 GMT -6
I find that fascinating! Probably Gygax would've been annoyed that the people who ran your club didn't make prospective DMs read the John Carter of Mars books, instead.  I think the hobby always needs more good DMs, but when you get into positions of policing players who lie and cheat, or are even generally obnoxious, I mean, why waste your time? I'd give them the boot, find some decent players, and consider the actions proof of my DMing moxy! My ability to actually play these days is so limited, I have no patience for dysfunction... I would say, what the hobby really needs, all around, are more good groups. |
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Bard
Level 3 Conjurer
The dice never lie.
Posts: 87
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Post by Bard on Jul 25, 2008 9:53:14 GMT -6
;D Ok, my post wasn't intended to be about Tolkien... But it's the two main bits of information I know about this test...* I'm more interested in the "lets confuse the DM" attitude, and that is there a good test procedure for the DM skill? Can it be measured and tested? * (You must also know, that at that time, in my country, Tolkien was about the only fantasy author available. The other thing they did, that they started to translate appendix N to Hungarian  |
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Post by ffilz on Jul 25, 2008 9:54:56 GMT -6
I've not quite had that kind of experience, though I have had some related experiences.
My first interaction with the MIT Strategic Games Society was at one of their conventions (sometime early in 1979, so probably their Wintercon). My friends and I had been playing at our homes and one of our players was a college student. He encouraged me to go to the convention. When I got there, he told me he was rounding up players for me while I registered. By the time I got to the table they had assigned me, there were 16 players, most of them college students. I ushered them into my dungeon, where of course they immediately started to split up. A big battle ensued. Did I mention our campaign had been a bit monty haul? So the characters were all double digit levels. My friend used a wish to try and flank the enemies and wound up in solid rock (the MIT guys used miniatures and dominoes to lay out the walls - the first time I had really used that kind of scaled layout - my friend emphatically said "I wish I was here, jabbing a spot on the table with his finger - oops...). So he wound up on the astral plane. Two of the MIT players went to the astral plane to rescue him (and convince him to change to LG alignment - he was LE or something).
After the game, those two players complimented me on managing such a wild game so well, and extended an invitation to join the club. A month or two later, I took them up on the offer and joined the club and started going into MIT every weekend, eventually attracting a stable group of players and frequent guest players.
A year or so later, I decided to try and run a D&D class in MIT's high school summer school. One of the guys who ran the program gave me a little role playing test before agreeing to let me run the course. The course ended up falling flat with just a friend and one other guy taking the class.
Frank
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scogle
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 69
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Post by scogle on Jul 25, 2008 12:07:19 GMT -6
First you had to read The Lord of the Rings. I love Tolkien to death but that's a big ol' FAIL for a D&D test qualification. Yeah forcing the DM to read Conan stories would probably be more fitting for D&D. Tolkien was certainly an influence, but Conan was a much bigger one. |
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urban
Level 1 Medium
TFT with forgiveness
Posts: 15
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Post by urban on Jul 25, 2008 15:23:33 GMT -6
I think this "Conan influence" on D&D is nearly as big misunderstanding as the Tolkien stuff. But OK, better than the LotR. |
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scogle
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 69
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Post by scogle on Jul 25, 2008 15:34:17 GMT -6
I think this "Conan influence" on D&D is nearly as big misunderstanding as the Tolkien stuff. But OK, better than the LotR. How so? You see it all over the three LBB's. Fighting-Men? Conan (even the word itself) Deities and Demigods? Conan Swords and Sorcery in general? Conan did it first. It wasn't the only influence, but it was definitely extremely important. It's much easier to imagine an OD&D game set in the Hyborian Age than one set in Forgotten Realms or Middle-Earth, and Gygax (Arneson too? I can't remember) cites it in one or two Dragon articles; pretty sure he's said it in interviews too, but that could've been Arneson or I could be totally wrong on that. |
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Post by Random on Jul 25, 2008 15:55:37 GMT -6
I could see a gaming club requiring a DM's test before allowing someone to DM a special game at a special event.
It should consist solely of the "run the game while the players test your skills" portion, and even then they shouldn't lay it on too thick, because D&D is about making the game fun for people who want to have fun, not for people who are just dickwads and want to screw up your fun game to temporarily amuse themselves.
Making someone read a certain book before DMing (other than the club's rule/handbook) is dumb in my opinion.
A much better option I think would be to let anyone DM, and the players will decide the best/worst DMs for themselves (they'll either sign up everytime or not at all).
If you want to really really test a DM's skill, though, play three or four sessions with him. First one, play normally and see if it's fun. Second one, try to travel to somewhere you know he doesn't have prepared. Third one, try to argue a ruling and see how he handles you. Maybe try to cheat a die roll or two in the middle of all that and see if and how he calls you on it.
It all depends on situation as well.
Personally, if I were at a convention and caught a player outright lying about die rolls (and he was above the age of 12), I'd kick him out of the game on the spot. If he were a regular player I'd just dock him the session's XP and deprive him of soda.
The DMs in your club may not appreciate such iron-fisted DM tactics.
Anyways, that's enough rant for now.
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urban
Level 1 Medium
TFT with forgiveness
Posts: 15
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Post by urban on Jul 28, 2008 6:51:19 GMT -6
How so? You see it all over the three LBB's. I try to be short because this is not the topic: I think Fighting-Men, Deities and Demigods and such are just like elves, dwarves and balrogs etc. For me Leiber' Fafhrd and Gray Mouser (and maybe Vance's Dying Earth) is the greatest influence on OD&D - f.e. how chars work in teams (=roles), trouble making, society etc... |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2008 7:36:23 GMT -6
First you had to read The Lord of the Rings. Well if that was part of the criteria, I would have flunked BIG time; I've never really been a huge Tolkien fan. Second, you had to DM for the leaders of the club. They tried to make the session difficult for you, for example they tried to cheat and so on. And I STILL would probably fail; I don't put up with that stuff in my games. PERIOD. Do it once, it's a warning; do it twice, a tree falls on your PC, you get mad, & then you leave my game. Problem solved! ;D Special Mention #1: Entering the national DM's competition in 1980, arriving at Gary's office at the appointed time, being forced to sit at Gary's Desk and in His Chair :!: and DM for Gygax, Jim Ward, and Brian Blume as the players -- who were all trying to create complex situations and even lie & cheat if possible, to test my skills. ( I won!  ) OK, now that's just plain scary. I don't think having a DM test is necessarily a bad thing, but I don't think it would work for OD&D; there are just too many variables from group to group. For AD&D1E, I could see it being a viable thing if a club wanted to institute that policy. In all, I agree with kesher's post; the hobby can always use good DM's, but it definently needs more good groups (& players, for that matter). |
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Post by robertsconley on Jul 28, 2008 7:39:39 GMT -6
A year or so later, I decided to try and run a D&D class in MIT's high school summer school. One of the guys who ran the program gave me a little role playing test before agreeing to let me run the course. The course ended up falling flat with just a friend and one other guy taking the class. I ran classes over the summer of 1983 at Meadville's YWCA. I went through making a character, making a dungeon, explained the other types of adventures (wilderness, city) for two days. Then ran a game for the remaining two days of class. I was a little rough as I was only 17 at the time but I had good attendance (6 the first session week and 4 the second week). Each day class was like two hours. The attendees for the most were either first time players who got the game and wondered how to play it or beginners wanting to learn how to DM. Got paid like $100 for the pair which of course got spent at State Street Model our local gamestore. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2008 12:36:12 GMT -6
The only meaningful DM test to me is this: Do the players keep coming back week after week to play. If they do, then you are a great DM. On the other hand if they don't return your phone calls you might be doing something wrong. ;D  |
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oldgeezer
Level 3 Conjurer
Original Blackmoor Participant
Posts: 70 
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Post by oldgeezer on Aug 7, 2008 10:13:04 GMT -6
I think this "Conan influence" on D&D is nearly as big misunderstanding as the Tolkien stuff. But OK, better than the LotR. *bzzt* No, but thank you for playing. Howard was definitely one of Gary's big influences. "Red Nails" was his example of a perfect dungeon-crawl story. Along with "Quarmall", of course. |
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blackmoor
Level 4 Theurgist
The First Dungeonmaster
Posts: 115
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Post by blackmoor on Nov 22, 2008 22:41:08 GMT -6
Both Gary and I read the old Conan books but I think that Fritz Leiber was more of a influence. I preferred Poul Anderson, especially Three Heats and Three Lions.
As for a test there are several points to be made. 1) Is Simply that the referee have a good basic knowledge of the rules. (Which ever ones are being used.) Too many don't. Close to that in m 2) book is being able to tell a story 'on the fly'.
At some point a group of 'experts' should look in. This is after all a 'living' campaign and noe set a stone. Good knowledge and good story and covers a lot.. But, neither can quite stand on it's own.
Dave Arneson
Dark Lord of Game Design
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