Merchants and Equipment in original campaigns

[chgowiz]

I've been having an ongoing discussion about economics and equipment in D&D. This was originally prompted by a mind-blowing example of someone putting attention to detail: A list of equipment available in a fantasy Dachau in the 1600s. What really got my attention was that this list "felt" accurate. Since then, I've introduced the concept into my campaign that there isn't a "Ye Olde Walley Marte", that if you want to protect your loot, you have to visit the furniture maker (for a chest) and a locksmith (for a lock). In talking to others, and seeing some blogposts, economics and introducing setting flavors by what is available and what is not is a common idea.

My question is of history - how were merchants and economics dealt with in the older campaigns or first campaigns? When did the idea of one "mega" store where all equipment was available begin, if that was something that anyone cared about? Are there examples where the first campaigns perhaps dabbled in economic forces and separate merchants providing (or not providing) the equipment found?

[Zulgyan]

I don´t feel that amount of detail and historic precision is necesary or desirable, but hey, that's just me!

[makofan]

I've tried it, but it just turns into a pain in the butt. Occasionally it works, like in my CSIO campaigns

[jrients]

Once in a while a little touch like this can be great. Small glimpses can suggest a larger world without turning the game into a shopping simulation.

[coffee]

I don't have a problem with the players having to go to different shops to get different things. I see it as analogous to the old west: You have a butcher for meat, a baker for bread, and everything else comes from the "dry goods" store. Or possibly there's an authentic "general store" in town -- it makes sense only if there is a manufacturing culture (as there was in the old west).

But that's just me. I believe the original post was asking how this was done back in the early days -- which would be Dave's game and those who came after (Gary, Rob, the Blumes, etc.)

And I, too, would like to hear about this situation in the old days.

[chgowiz]

Mar 18, 2009 13:23:28 GMT -6 jrients said:

Once in a while a little touch like this can be great. Small glimpses can suggest a larger world without turning the game into a shopping simulation.

What I've done is when the players they want to go find XYZ, I tell them if there's a merchant selling that item and the price. If they want to haggle, that may devolve into a bit of RP'ing. The only time it really becomes an issue is like when the tinsmith has been missing for months, his family left for safer parts and nobody is around that can fashion tin/bronze lanterns.

So it's not like I'm making them crawl through Skara Brae, but there are some interesting possibilities and hooks.

But I'm curious about how it was Back Then - and when/where the mega-store became The Thing To Do.

[cadriel]

In the very early Alarums & Excursions, I don't think there was a lot of discussion of the actual mechanics of buying mundane items. Most of the debate was about the frequency, acquisition and sharing of magical items. Hargrave's list of prices in Arduin is the most obvious example I've seen of attempting to "correct" the D&D price charts and insert some variability into the process.

Personally, I think verisimilitude would be served by having basically three charts. One would be a list of what merchants sell each type of item, with the probability that such a merchant would be in (a village, a fortress, a castle, a major city). The second would be a percentage chart to determine whether an item is available at the time the PCs are looking for it, and a third would be the actual price listed as a multiplier for the listed price. It may not be a realistic macro-economic scenario, but it'd have the basic effect of jazzing things up a bit.

[chgowiz]

Mar 18, 2009 21:29:18 GMT -6 cadriel said:

Hargrave's list of prices in Arduin is the most obvious example I've seen of attempting to "correct" the D&D price charts and insert some variability into the process.

Personally, I think verisimilitude would be served by having basically three charts. One would be a list of what merchants sell each type of item, with the probability that such a merchant would be in (a village, a fortress, a castle, a major city). The second would be a percentage chart to determine whether an item is available at the time the PCs are looking for it, and a third would be the actual price listed as a multiplier for the listed price. It may not be a realistic macro-economic scenario, but it'd have the basic effect of jazzing things up a bit.

That's a game I hear a lot about, but I don't have a copy of. That would be interesting to see.

I like that idea, mind if I steal it and play around with it? Domesday resources are plenty on the web, and I might be able to thrash something together.

[cadriel]

Mar 19, 2009 7:31:25 GMT -6 @chgowiz said:

That's a game I hear a lot about, but I don't have a copy of. That would be interesting to see.

Yeah, I'd recommend picking up the new hardcover from EmpCho. I'm kind of kicking myself b/c I bought the booklets a year or so ago and may just get the hardcover for durability and bigger page scans anyway.

I like that idea, mind if I steal it and play around with it? Domesday resources are plenty on the web, and I might be able to thrash something together.

Go ahead. It was written to be stolen. My interests tend more toward "natural" stuff than economics of D&D. Though I'd be interested to use it once it's done.

[welleran]

If you look back at modules like B2 and T1 you get an idea of how Gygax did the shopping thing. For instance, I recall T1 had a general store in Hommlet that sold pretty much anything you wnated, though costs were something like 110% of listed prices while items purchased was well under 100% of value. B2 had several unique items listed in addition to standard stuff.

[chgowiz]

Mar 19, 2009 8:38:03 GMT -6 welleran said:

If you look back at modules like B2 and T1 you get an idea of how Gygax did the shopping thing. For instance, I recall T1 had a general store in Hommlet that sold pretty much anything you wnated, though costs were something like 110% of listed prices while items purchased was well under 100% of value. B2 had several unique items listed in addition to standard stuff.

Funny, I have B2 in my bag with me - there's a Smithy/Armorer, Provisioner (Ye Olde Walley Martte), Trader (armor, weapons, mounts, 'other goods') and a random jewelry merchant - which fits about what I have encountered in the past in terms of merchants.

I've been doing a percentage roll on what the players attempt to sell back - unless it's something valuable or rare.

[gsvenson]

In our original Blackmoor game, one of the players, Dan Nicholson, was the merchant. He sold just about everything and had a monopoly in the town.

[chgowiz]

Mar 19, 2009 14:36:41 GMT -6 gsvenson said:

In our original Blackmoor game, one of the players, Dan Nicholson, was the merchant. He sold just about everything and had a monopoly in the town.

That's really neat! How did he go about getting all his goods, as a player?

[gsvenson]

Mar 20, 2009 9:09:03 GMT -6 @chgowiz said:

Mar 19, 2009 14:36:41 GMT -6 gsvenson said:

In our original Blackmoor game, one of the players, Dan Nicholson, was the merchant. He sold just about everything and had a monopoly in the town.

That's really neat! How did he go about getting all his goods, as a player?

I honestly don't know, that was between him and Dave Arneson, the DM.

[ragnorakk]

that's funny!

[waysoftheearth]

I can't answer the question about how economics were handled in the original campaigns, but FWIW I can mention my own thoughts...

I use equipment lists divided by "store type", though I only have about half as many items as the fantastic list linked to in Chgowiz's OP.

The rounded and unrealistic prices of gear in D&D have always niggled me a bit -- especially the amazingly cheap plate mail. But the main benefit I see in store-specific-lists isn't more "accurate" pricing, but is in determining the availability of goods.

When the PCs are in/around a large centre, they can probably buy/sell almost anything. But when they are roughing it among the frontier farms and villages (where adventures are commonly found), it can be interesting to restrict the availability of goods. Occasionally, the players may even have to make do with less than optimal equipment (shock!).

A tiny rural farmstead, or even a typical village of some two hundred-ish souls, just isn't going to have a university, or a jeweller, or a locksmith, or a blacksmith. There's an even chance that it won't even have a tavern.

Figuring out what is available at any given village becomes a matter of rolling a few dice to determine which stores exist there, and offering the players only the appropriate lists.

Restricting access to goods and services this way can add an extra dimension to the "resource management" part of the game for the players (if they are into that kind of thing), and is also an excellent way for the referee to introduce strategically important places to the game world. The single village in these parts that does have a blacksmith, or is home to a convent of scholarly priests suddenly becomes far more important (and thus memorable) to the players.

[ragnorakk]

I like the way waysoftheearth has framed this. It is something I have
done in games before (not to the extent that Alexis has gone through)
and it really can add flavor. In excess (like pretty much everything!) it
can become tedium.

I tend to think of normal shops as the first-floor of a craftsman's home,
and divide shops up generally by materials first - the trade practiced by
the owner. And also see if there's anything particular about the local
environment to imagine 'special products', or say the woodcrofts of
Neknek-town are highly-skilled...etc

THis has almost always been an intellectual exercise though - something
for the 'setting' over play - I've never tried to role-play 'a day of shopping'
or whatever. But it does provide use means of depth - "Don't have any swords
today, sir - Lord Neknek bought all of them for his guards - and ordered more!" or
what if the smiths had to stop everything because their iron mines have become
infested with Particularly Nasty Kobalds? Somebody's gotta chase those buggers
out...

I thin kit is a great thing to think about and to work into your game, but it's largely
a 'behind-the-scenes' kind of thing.

(I hope this is not a bad-word around here, but...) Rolemaster ... had a
pretty good system (actually one of the simplest set of tables in the whole game!)
for supply/demand issues in local markets.

[harami2000]

Mar 29, 2009 17:01:47 GMT -6 ragnorakk said:

(I hope this is not a bad-word around here, but...) Rolemaster ... had a
pretty good system (actually one of the simplest set of tables in the whole game!)
for supply/demand issues in local markets.

Shouldn't be a bad word, as designed to supplement xD&D.
*nods* Useful baseline tables those compared with what's available in the vast majority of combat-orientated (*g*) systems.

[supernaught]

Hargrave's list of prices in Arduin is the most obvious example I've seen of attempting to "correct" the D&D price charts and insert some variability into the process.

In Arduin, Multiversal Trading Company is the "Ye Olde Walley-Marte"of the world and just about anything can be purchased. MTC has offices in most cities, towns and settlements in Arduin and offers not only goods but services like offering loans, storing valuables, underwriting reasearch and treasure hunts and will build to order just about anything one can imagine. They are also a source of information for a price and eagerly purchase all sorts of goodies that adventurers aquire. Multiversal also has a unique form of credit note called an MTC "Chit" which is basically a credit card used by all who have an account with them Of course, what is available at any given moment is up to the individual DM to keep things from getting out of hand. I have a PDF of MTC but am not sure if it is legal to post online. It was posted on the old Arduin boards and is straight from David Hargraves notes ;D

[ragnorakk]

That would be an interesting PDF to see...
there *might* be a place on the board appropriate for a link to it...