An Evil Idea is Brewing....

[doc]

An evil idea is brewing in my lil' head.

Not every dwarf in the game world is lawful and good, although the monsters and creatures section lists them as such, nor is every elf on the side of the Good Guys just because that is how they are typically portrayed. Heck, even drow are good every great now and then.

So, what about a gold dragon that has gone over to the side of Evil without anybody knowing?

Yeah, I'm a'gonna spring this little doozy on my players in a few weeks. Let's see how they deal with a gold dragon that lulls them into a false sense of security by offering his protection, only to try to tear them to shreds once their guard is down.

And, in that vein, let me ask this: What sort of policy do the rest of you follow concerning monster alignment? Is every goblin evil and treacherous? Is every elf merry and helpful? How often, if ever, do you throw in monsters with alignments that do not mesh with what is traditionally expected of them? Any examples?

Doc

[korgoth]

In my version of the Averoigne setting, the demi-humans and humanoids are all Fey, and Fey are divided into the Summer and Winter Courts. Some are exclusively aligned with one or the other (such as Orcs being exclusively Winter), but some (such as Elves) might tend largely toward one court but sometimes be found among the other. Both have the possibility of being hostile to men, though the Winter Court moreso obviously.

All Fey tend to be capricious, self-serving and arrogant. This makes even the 'friendly' ones a bit dangerous.

[Deleted]

Jul 27, 2008 22:17:03 GMT -6 doc said:

Is every goblin evil and treacherous? Is every elf merry and helpful? How often, if ever, do you throw in monsters with alignments that do not mesh with what is traditionally expected of them? Any examples?

Well, as for monstrous humanoids IMC, they're all pretty much Chaotic & Evil.

Now as for the PC demi-humans, my campaign differs greatly from the norm (as listed below):

Dwarves are highly secretive; rarely venturing outside their mountain strongholds, they rule their kingdoms with an iron-fist. Extremely xenophobic, they are no friend of either Elves or Men, with conflicts often times boiling over into outright wars of attrition. Dwarven law teaches that superiors must be strictly & promptly obeyed. Elders instruct the young on the importance of dedication to one's craft, & endless toil to achieve wealth, security, & power. As such, dwarves view life as a harsh existence in which nothing is easy; this is the proper, honorable way to live, as reward without effort is sin. Dwarven elders teach their people to suffer stoically & remain aloof from all other races, who are lazy & weak. The weak are undeserving, & adversity is the dwarven forge. Dwarves IMC are mostly Lawful & Evil (with very few being Lawful & Neutral [most likely outcasts, all of whom are considered "underacheivers", "slackers", & "lazy"]).

Elves are great stewards of nature, loathe to accept encroachment into their hallowed forests; as such, border skirmishes with both Dwarves & Men are commonplace. Elven tradition teaches that living things are born, live, die, & then reincarnate in an infinite cycle. Perhaps the cycle is endless; perhaps it‘s purpose is to give the soul of the living enough experience so that it can achieve a greater level of consciousness & being. Rarely seen in the realm of Man, elves confine themselves to their ancient sylvan realms, observing the outside world at a distance, but reticent to act for either good or evil unless their way of life is threatened. Elves IMC are completely Neutral.

Hobbits (Halflings) IMC pretty much fit the Tolkien standard, so there is really no need to describe them.

Gnomes never enter the outside world, so it would be exceedingly rare for a PC to ever interact with one.

As for Dragons, only the Black, Blue, Green, Red, & White are represented - there are NO Lawful or Good dragons in my campaign world; they are all Chaotic & Evil.

[Random]

I'm in the process of editing OD&D for myself (incorporating a few changes), and I'm taking out alignment completely.

So, in theory, I could have an 'evil' Gold Dragon.

Sounds like fun, doc, just don't overdo it else your players will get frustrated by the unpredictable nature of your monsters.

[badger2305]

Jul 28, 2008 5:39:06 GMT -6 @oltekos said:

Now as for the PC demi-humans, my campaign differs greatly from the norm (as listed below):

Dwarves are highly secretive; rarely venturing outside their mountain strongholds, they rule their kingdoms with an iron-fist. Extremely xenophobic, they are no friend of either Elves or Men, with conflicts often times boiling over into outright wars of attrition. Dwarven law teaches that superiors must be strictly & promptly obeyed. Elders instruct the young on the importance of dedication to one's craft, & endless toil to achieve wealth, security, & power. As such, dwarves view life as a harsh existence in which nothing is easy; this is the proper, honorable way to live, as reward without effort is sin. Dwarven elders teach their people to suffer stoically & remain aloof from all other races, who are lazy & weak. The weak are undeserving, & adversity is the dwarven forge. Dwarves IMC are mostly Lawful & Evil (with very few being Lawful & Neutral [most likely outcasts, all of whom are considered "underacheivers", "slackers", & "lazy"]).

Elves are great stewards of nature, loathe to accept encroachment into their hallowed forests; as such, border skirmishes with both Dwarves & Men are commonplace. Elven tradition teaches that living things are born, live, die, & then reincarnate in an infinite cycle. Perhaps the cycle is endless; perhaps it‘s purpose is to give the soul of the living enough experience so that it can achieve a greater level of consciousness & being. Rarely seen in the realm of Man, elves confine themselves to their ancient sylvan realms, observing the outside world at a distance, but reticent to act for either good or evil unless their way of life is threatened. Elves IMC are completely Neutral.

Hobbits (Halflings) IMC pretty much fit the Tolkien standard, so there is really no need to describe them.

Gnomes never enter the outside world, so it would be exceedingly rare for a PC to ever interact with one.

As for Dragons, only the Black, Blue, Green, Red, & White are represented - there are NO Lawful or Good dragons in my campaign world; they are all Chaotic & Evil.

See, this is great. Really very good. Oltekos has taken the basic stuff of our game and made it his own. Some of it might seem like other things we may have seen before, but together are very much his own. Good job!

[blackbarn]

I prefer to think of dwarves as being like the ones from Norse mythology, perhaps more greedy and lecherous than usually depicted in D&D, not liked by humans, but dealt with when necessary for trade, etc. Elves I tend to think of as being secretive and alien, more neutral than friendly, and not to be trusted according to many humans. The PC demihumans might be exceptions, ones that for whatever reason do travel among and adventure with humans.

Regarding the evil gold dragon, I think that's great. Going against color for dragons is a good way to surprise players and keep some mystery in the game. In practice, I usually depict creatures as one would expect, but might make an exception if it seems to make sense and would make for a more interesting game.

[oldgamergeek]

I use a few lawfull good orcs and such in my campaigns , so why not ?

[jcstephens]

Elves in my campaign are visitors from another realm, the realm of Faerie. They are always neutral, in fact any Elf who takes an alignment forfeits his his immortality. They hire out as soldiers of fortune to both Law and Chaos, the only restriction being that Elf must not slay Elf. And they all know each other, and address each other as "cousin" and make arch comments on each others choice of companions.

Dwarves are always Lawful, having been created in a previous cycle as soldiers of Law. They've been mostly supplanted in this role by Men, and haven't taken their decline gracefully. They'll turn out for the big battles, but for the most part the Dwarves are for the Dwarves. Occasionally a Dwarf goes renegade, but all other Dwarves consider it a matter of honor to hunt them down and kill them.

Orcs are not a race as such, but corrupted mortals (Elves swear no Elf ever became an Orc, but are probably lying). Whenever Orcs desire or are ordered to increase their numbers, they offer prospective recruits mans-flesh to eat. Those who do are transformed into Orcs, those who don't become the second course. Other Chaos creatures have similar origins.

[kesher]

Jan 5, 2009 19:08:51 GMT -6 jcstephens said:

Orcs are not a race as such, but corrupted mortals (Elves swear no Elf ever became an Orc, but are probably lying). Whenever Orcs desire or are ordered to increase their numbers, they offer prospective recruits mans-flesh to eat. Those who do are transformed into Orcs, those who don't become the second course. Other Chaos creatures have similar origins.

Now, that's nice. Or evil, or however you want to look at it...

[chgowiz]

This is out of my Dark Ages campaign wiki:

Littlelings (halflings)

Littlelings are the “trailer trash” of the world. They’re not respected, they’re seen little better than the bestials, and the only reason they’re “tolerated” is because they don’t go out of their way to be evil in the world. However, they are seen as filthy rats. Nothing could be further from the truth – but with the Doom of Man and the retreat of the other races, very few littlelings are seen around the human lands. They’re considered to be ill-mannered, disreputable, untrustworthy and generally just icky.

Elves

Long ago, in the ancient legends, Elves and Man united to free the lands from the Dark Forces that controlled it. It is said that at the same time, they freed the Dwarfs from their slavery to the Dark Ones. However, as the years rolled on, Elves became distant from Man, instead choosing to sail the seas in search of their ancestral homes. Every now and again, Elves would turn up in a city or strange place, looking for clues.

Now, with the Doom of Man upon the lands, Elves have shunned Man. At one time, the ports would be filled with Elvish mariners. Now, few have ever seen an Elvish ship and fewer still have met Elves face to face. None know where they have gone.


Dwarfs

Dwarfs were once the lackeys of the Dark Ones in ages past. Freed by Man and Elves, Dwarfs retreated to their mountains and hills, content to live their lives in peace and away from civilization. It is said that Dwarfs became one with the lands and weather that they lived in, becoming almost barbaric and nomadic in their Northern retreats, and known for periodic outbreaks of attacks and looting upon the civilized worlds. Those same stories spoke of cities with wondrous things beyond mortal comprehension and of wealth in trading with these Dwarfs.

Yet since the Doom of Man, little has been seen or heard from the Dwarfs in their stone fortresses deep in the mountains and northern frozen wastes. It is wondered aloud if they have disappeared in the cataclysm that has shaken the lands.

[dwayanu]

I deployed some evil pixies/sprites once ... nasty!!

Is it perhaps the case that on balance the forces of Law, Neutrality and Good in D&D (maybe more so in AD&D) are more powerful -- unless vastly outnumbered -- than those of Chaos and Evil?

[Finarvyn]

I ran a game once where Elves were evil and Drow were good.

It really messed up the party when they fell in with a troupe of Elves who found and slaughtered a village of Drow. Took a few survivors as slaves.

It sort of turned their world upside down, so to speak, and took them a while to realize what I had done to them. (Hee, hee!)

[chgowiz]

I wanted to follow-up my description of littlelings with a caution - sometimes if you turn the tropes too far upside down in a negative way, it can have unintended consequences, like players not wanting to play.

I had littlelings as the trailer trash of the world, even perhaps being enslaved and heavily discriminated against. My initial thought had been to basically make "gully dwarfs" be a PC race.

What ended up happening was a group discussion that would basically lead some players possibly refusing to team up with that race, and the person who wanted to play that race was considering his options (and I got the feeling that "not playing" was one of those options. )

Now admittedly, the setting is the setting, but I also wanted the players to take the demi-humans and expand up them. The player who is running the elf is doing a fantastic job of that, and one of my players has unexpectedly helped me to understand how the pantheon of my campaign will work. (I believe in Just-In-Time defining.)

The issue was that a PC race was going to end up being an extremely negative experience. The campaign is new, the players have a lot of input into how things get fleshed out, so after some discussion, I ret-conned the littlelings to now be more of "unwelcome in-laws with untrusthworthy reputations", moreso than vile trailertrash.

Some might have told that player "too bad, this is the setting, deal or don't play", but at the end of the day, we're just getting started and the specifics of the setting aren't as important as how they will grow as the players "discover" the setting. Maybe littlelings aren't seen as vile things, but perhaps through play, they'll end up being that way. I don't know, but it gave me some things to chew over and I'm still chewing on them.

Just a thought along this thread...

[Finarvyn]

Feb 9, 2009 11:49:58 GMT -6 @chgowiz said:

Some might have told that player "too bad, this is the setting, deal or don't play", but at the end of the day, we're just getting started and the specifics of the setting aren't as important as how they will grow as the players "discover" the setting. Maybe littlelings aren't seen as vile things, but perhaps through play, they'll end up being that way. I don't know, but it gave me some things to chew over and I'm still chewing on them.
Your observation is a good one. Clearly the DM has the biggest say on how things work in the game world, but it does have to allow for a certain amount of player collaboration in order to make the game fun for all.

Your telling of your story reminded me that in general my players weren't a big fan of my elf-drow superposition, either. They found the world somewhat disturbing instead of an enjoyable challenge. That campaign didn't really last that long before we moved onto something else. (Of course, none of my campaigns last more than about nine months or so ... this one just flew by a bit faster.)
Just a thought along this thread...

[dwayanu]

I've just tossed out my "Moorcockian" take on Elves and the "stone-age natives" treatment of Halflings to the one player with characters of those types. He seems okay with those so far. He added a highfalutin "amateur anthropologist" touch to his play of the Elf, and a wild recklessness to the Halfling -- the first strikingly distinctive portrayals of PCs in three sessions.

[jensen]

For an example of the opposite of what doc described, I remember an adventure in Dungeon magazine once, where the main 'villain'/opposition was a copper dragon that had lived in a damp cave behind a waterfall, and all the spraying water and air humidity had corroded it's scales. The local villagers were peeing themselves with fright, because they thought a green dragon was terrorizing the neighborhood, even though it never attacked anyone or ate (too much of) their livestock. You could do much the same thing with a silver dragon being mistaken for a black dragon, but not with a gold dragon, I'm afraid, since gold doesn't rust.

[ragnorakk]

copper, brass, or bronze...

[thegreyelf]

My group has a dwarf Cavalier who opted at one point to take a goblin prisoner instead of killing it.

He then politely informed the little guy that "you are now my squire, and you WILL learn to behave like a civilized being."

He (and the rest of the group) then proceeded to reform little Gricknack, who became a valued retainer until the poor guy succumbed to a failed "remove traps" roll by the group's thief (everyone but Gricknack made their save against the poisoned gas cloud).