Do your players understand your setting?

[Finarvyn]

korgoth said:

I have both run and played in Call of Cthulhu. I recall a friend, who ran the game from time to time, having an idiosyncratic interpretation of the themes presented therein. At some point, he revealed that he had never actually read any of the stories by Lovecraft or his circle. I was astounded! That would be like running a Star Wars game without ever having seen any of the movies, I told him.

Another interesting comment which I found to be thread-worthy.

One thing I find happens a lot is that I prepare a campaign based upon some source material. Unless I go for something really maiinstream like Star Wars, eems like whatever topic I pick (Conan, Fafhrd & Grey Mouser, Metamorphosis Alpha) is a topic that none of the players has actually read.

So what happens is that I put together all of this neat stuff with a specific mental image in mind, then I spend a few minutes explaining what the setting is and how it works, and then my players mentally fill in anything left out in ways that are nothing like the setting I'm trying to run.

For example, once I ran a game of Sorcerer. It's supposed to be dark and angst-filled. I had too many players so I decided that it would be cool to have half of the players be sorcerers and the other half the demons they had summoned. When my group was done with it, the game became a slapstick comedy with the demons forcing the sorcerers to do stupid things. A fun game to be sure, but nothing like the way a Sorcerer game is supposed to be.

Is this a universal problem, and how do you counter iit?

[serendipity]

I'm going to respond from a player's viewpoint, as the only game I've DM'd is B&B, where the players (my niece and nephew) were extremely serious about their world of bunnies.

In my adult gaming group, many of the players want to play a comedic game. They say they're here to socialize, and that sort of game is most fun. I enjoy the socializing part of the evening, but I also want to immerse myself in the world of the game. For me, it is pleasurable to embrace the atmosphere and aura provided by my DM. In most games, I do my best to stay in persona and to help maintain the fiction, often researching the events and accoutrements of the era, if the setting is from--or at least comparable to--the real world. (shrugging) I'm not sure how the two styles can be made compatible. I have noticed that the larger the group, the less apt we are to have a serious game, even when it's been made clear that that was the intent.

Perhaps this has gone too far afield from what you wanted to discuss, Fin. But when it comes to having games devolve into something silly, I suspect that the players' lack of knowledge about a setting is not the major influencing factor.

[James Maliszewski]

admin said:

One thing I find happens a lot is that I prepare a campaign based upon some source material. Unless I go for something really maiinstream like Star Wars, eems like whatever topic I pick (Conan, Fafhrd & Grey Mouser, Metamorphosis Alpha) is a topic that none of the players has actually read.

This is a very common problem in my experience too, but I am (mostly) blessed by the fact that the majority of my regular players are at least big Howard and Leiber fans, so they know and understand at least two of the (IMO) three pillars of D&D's literary background. Outside my group, though, I find very few people who know and understand pulp fantasy, let alone have read it and I think this is reflected in the way that D&D has over the years shifted in its inspirations, first toward generic "high fantasy" and later toward over the top comic book/wuxia/anime/video game stuff.

Part of the problem is that fantasy, as a literary genre, is a wasteland nowadays and, just as importantly, many of the classic sources of D&D are out of print or hard to find. Likewise, no one has ever done a faithful cinematic adaptation of Howard's stories or even tried to do anything with Vance, so there's no obvious "hook" on which to catch younger people whose understanding of fantasy is a bit skewed Mind you, a movie might not improve the situation. I know a lot of people who decided to read Tolkien after seeing the recent films and found him "boring," never mind those for whom the films' misinterpretations of this or that is deemed superior to those of the Professor.

As ever, education is the key. That or gaming with guys who have refined tastes in fantasy. ;D

[serendipity]

As a footnote to this discussion, I would like to add that gaming groups which are comprised of a large percentage of women may run into the issue that we often don't read the same types of fiction that you guys do. Perhaps if you were using a setting from Wrede's Lyra, from McCaffrey's Pern, or from Logston's elf thief Shadow's world there might be more pattern recognition, so to speak.

[korgoth]

admin said:

Is this a universal problem, and how do you counter iit?

I'm not sure about the universality of the problem... one possible solution I can think of, and this solution would not have universal application (because certain milieus have not been particularly blessed artistically) is to have the group watch a movie that sets the appropriate tone and mood. The movie doesn't even have to represent the precise setting, as long as it does a good job of giving the players an idea of what "feel" you're going for.

Not that I think that people think with their feelings or anything, but I think a movie could do a good job of establishing a frame of reference. Of course, the caveat is that it could easily blow up in one's face, if the movie is ill-chosen or they latch onto an inappropriate aspect of it.

For Cthulhu maybe I'd show the original black and white version of the haunting with Claire Bloom (I hatehatehate horror movies, but this one was a classic). The original Conan movie might be good for getting people into a Sword and Sorcery mindset, not because of its merits as a work of art or even its fidelity to the stories (both of which could be argued), but because it does do a decent job of showing Sword and Sorcery themes.

Anyway, just a thought. Handle with care!

[coffee]

Another thing I've heard of people doing is using common references in collision to describe their world.

You find two (or more, but two usually works) popular works (film or tv, these days) and describe it in those terms.

For instance, you could run a science fiction game and say it's Firefly meets Starship Troopers (the film, unfortunately; gamer don't seem to read like they used to...) It could be smugglers on the periphery of a war. Anyway, that's just an example off the top of my head, but I think it illustrates the point.

[crimhthanthegreat]

Yes, my players do understand my homebrew setting and no it has never been a problem. Between us old guys we have a pretty extensive collection of fantasy and we have it passed around first through our children, then our grandchildren and soon to our great grandchildren. We all appear at each other's family reunions and do storytelling for the kids every year and hear in our own area we are always reading and doing storytelling within our families. All of our children and grandchildren are more widely read than we are and better educated. But we have done all we could to make sure that they are well grounded in folk tales, fairy tales, myths and legends, and fantasy fiction.

[Deleted]

My players understand my setting because they grow with it. I start off small (a town & a dungeon), & grow from there. I've used my own homebrewed setting since around '93, & I still only have a handful of countries & cultures listed in my notes. I like to start off very small (a village & a dungeon, both usually in a remote area [to keep it localized]) & go from there. If the PC's wan't to explore the countryside, I'll come up with it on the fly & take notes of what I'm describing; seems to work pretty well for us.

[serendipity]

korgoth said:

one possible solution I can think of, and this solution would not have universal application (because certain milieus have not been particularly blessed artistically) is to have the group watch a movie that sets the appropriate tone and mood.

I like the idea, but my group gathers so infrequently and our sessions are so short (most players are parents with youngsters to get to bed) that I hate to use up an evening just watching a movie. I guess we could request everyone watch a particular movie before we next gathered, but somehow that's not the same....

[crimhthanthegreat]

serendipity said:

I like the idea, but my group gathers so infrequently and our sessions are so short (most players are parents with youngsters to get to bed) that I hate to use up an evening just watching a movie. I guess we could request everyone watch a particular movie before we next gathered, but somehow that's not the same....

What does your gaming group have in common as far as RL background in fantasy and gaming? How long have you been playing and how much game background have you established so far?

[serendipity]

crimhthanthegreat said:

What does your gaming group have in common as far as RL background in fantasy and gaming? How long have you been playing and how much game background have you established so far?

I don't know what you mean by RL background. I asked the guys I game with not to use codes, so they don't, which means I haven't a clue when it comes to acronyms and such. (However, I am tickled to say I do know what THAC0 is and means....) So maybe you could translate that for me?

The base group has been gaming for over ten years, but we have only had a couple of year+ campaigns. Our group is versatile and interested in trying new things, so we don't seem to stay with any one setting or game mechanic for long. When you ask how much game background has been established (I'm not the game master), I don't know if you mean for a specific game or world or gaming in general. Some of us are big on backstories, which get woven into the world, and some are not. The world is generally one we learn about as we adventure, since we rarely seem to return to a familiar one. We're too anxious to try out whatever else is on the horizon.

Frankly, the fiction we read isn't terribly compatible. Several of the guys have much the same background in reading as the crew here at OD&D, but one is heavily into the arts and is more apt to be reading plays than popular novels. And although the girls do read fantasy, they're just as apt to be reading mysteries, literature, or--these days--books on finance or kinesiology. If we limited ourselves to what we have in common, we'd be playing Lord of the Rings every time.

Trying to match television viewing is even worse. We've all seen Firefly (possibly the only show we all agree on), but otherwise don't seem to share viewing tastes, with our respective favorites being listed as crime, BBC drama, vintage sci-fi, comedy, and American Idol. Then there's me; I don't even have live tv.

Common ground? Sometimes I think we haven't even a common planet. It does make our gaming sessions anything but dull, though; you certainly cannot predict the direction the action is going to take. ;D

--Sere
P.S. I reread Fin's original post and am sympathizing even more with his position. I think his group and mine would get along splendidly. Want to set up a mega-game for our groups, Fin? I think we'd fit right in.

[Finarvyn]

serendipity said:

I hate to use up an evening just watching a movie. I guess we could request everyone watch a particular movie before we next gathered, but somehow that's not the same....

Ah, the problem of homework. Nobody does it.

I remember one gamer in our old group (everyone probably has one of these guys) who wanted to GM a game and gave everyone a packet of information to read -- about 50 pages worth. Of course some of us read it, but others rebelled and said that it wasn't worth it. They wanted to play, not read.

[Morandir]

(Fin, consider your challenge answered!)

This is a big problem for me. In the last year or two I've really gotten into the Pulp fantasy/S&S/planetary romance stuff that was the major influence on D&D, and my own campaign world reflects this. Archaeis looks like Hyborian Age Earth, and is connected (via the eponymous city) to Geoffrey McKinney's Carcosa setting; Barsoom can literally be reached by airship, should anyone ever try (though it would take weeks of travel through the Outer Gulfs). Bronzed warriors in battle harness, sly thieves, mysterious mystics wielding psionic powers, decadent noblemen and crazed sorcerers all run around throwing spells and blasting each other with ray guns and other alien technology - when they can find it - or battling with demon-possessed weapons as they struggle to acquire the vast treasures and arcane lore left behind by ancient civilizations. Elements of Howard, Lieber, Vance, Burroughs, and Lovecraft all abound.

The problem is, I'm the only one who's actually read all of those. One guy has read a few Conan stories (and has seen the movies) and is starting on Solomon Kane, but my wife's experience with fantasy is all Tolkien, Robert Jordan and the Forgotten Realms novels. She has proven highly resistant to the idea of reading Howard for some reason (though I did get her to read Tower of the Elephant, which she seemed to like). The other member of the group gets all his fantasy experience from Japanese RPG video games like Final Fantasy, though he and I are trading Warhammer novels back and forth at the moment, which helps (since it has some similar elements). The other big problem is that all our gaming up until last year was with 3.x D&D, which means that not only do I have difficulties with setting, but also with the fundamental ideas behind old-school play. "Re-educating" them has been a slow process, but it's working.

The solution I've arrived at for the setting is to write a supplement. Rather than just typing up a sheet of houserules, I'm working on an actual book in the style of the 3LBBs. It will be short but sprinkled liberally with info about the setting, and full of artwork that evokes what I see in my head. Since they'll need to look through it to make characters, hopefully they'll begin to pick up on what I'm going for with this setting. Maybe (just maybe!) they'll even ask to borrow some of my books. I can hope, right?

Mor

[chronoplasm]

I tried to run a D&D campaign inspired by Barsoom + Dune.
My players however only knew Final Fantasy and World of Warcraft.

[palmer]

Aw, Chronoplasm, that's just sad. It's too bad nobody makes a Sword & Sorcery appreciation download helmit. Just slap it on their head, hit the button, and presto, instant Lieber fan!

[brianm]

I don't think my players understand my setting, but it's not been a huge issue.

Ok, that's not entirely true. One of them understands it very, very well, even to the point where she can argue positions that are anathema to her own views on things, but make perfect sense to the people inside the world. But she got there after 6+ months of gaming and is deeply interested in exploring the world on a cultural level. She's the sort of player DMs make virgin sacrifices to the gods of Mountain Dew and Cheetos in hopes of being blessed with. ;D

Most of the other players kinda-sorta get it. I've yet to have any silly-wacky Stuffinpuff looniness from any of them. Maybe I got lucky?

If I'm doing anything to encourage them towards harmony with my themes, it's that my themes are very broad. There's room, and a place, for a bit of comedy, even if just to lighten up the more tense bits.

I certainly keep my NPCs in theme. They have their comedic moments, but I don't have any woo-hoo comedic or anachronistic characters.

I'm also fairly intense as far as verisimilitude goes. I may not know what every shoreline of my world looks like (heck, I still haven't mapped out the island they are even on) but I know what the people eat, what they wear, and how they curse. I think that last does a lot to create the right flavor and expectations.

Finally, we play via text chat. Nothing, nothing, nothing, NOTHING I have done in 27+ years of gaming has done more to promote verisimilitude than chucking the table and replacing face-to-face with online text chat. It banishes distractions, OOC silliness, and most of the Monty Python quotes.

Yeah, I know, hard to believe, but for the sort of gaming I prefer these days, I'm more than happy to lose the benefits of face-to-face to get what online Labyrinth Lord has been delivering since January.

- Brian

[chronoplasm]

Sept 1, 2009 21:44:43 GMT -6 palmer said:

Aw, Chronoplasm, that's just sad. It's too bad nobody makes a Sword & Sorcery appreciation download helmit. Just slap it on their head, hit the button, and presto, instant Lieber fan!

That would be a cool magic item actually.

Helm of Lore
This headgear doesn't just grant a bonus to AC; it imbues the wearer with knowledge of great literature. Simply open the ear pieces to hear the narration of the ages, and look through the visor to see into the past!

[palmer]

Ooh! That's a good idea. I'm gonna change it to a big floppy hat and call it the sage's thinking cap. Maybe wearing the thinking cap temporarily boosts the PCs intelligence score, or allows them to reroll an attempt to figure out a puzzle or trap. OR maybe it would grant knowledge of a specific question. Maybe the wearer of the thinking cap could directly ask a question of the DM once in a session. Hmmmm.

[thorswulf]

I think most of the problems with understanding the setting have been hit upon pretty well. I don't get to game much with 2 kids to take of, and it is the odd wargame when I do. The problem really extends past gaming. Most folks have read Dragonlance, or Robert Jordan, or (Insert modern author/s here), and may have seen most of the movies talked about too, but the plain fact of the matter is this: It just aint in their blood like it is in ours!

I have a confession to make. I love skeletons! Know why? Ray Harryhousen's animated skellies, that's why. Sadly many new gamers have never even seen Jason and the Argonauts. Some have never even seen Conan the Barbarian! Gasp! Sputter! Choke!....Arrghhhh... my heart.....

I have been very fortunate enough to work with about 5 other guys who love fantasy and science fiction. All but two of them were/are gamers as well, and the other two were familiar with the subject. So maybe the problem isn't as bad as you think. By the way there have been several awesome comic book versions of Howard and Leiber's work, and these could probably help expose younger gamers to your favorite authors. Folks seem to pick up on visual representations better than ones they read.

Not surprising really. Over the last 25 years a lot of research has been involved in understanding how we learn. Guess what? We all learn and absorb information in a handful of different ways. Some folks are hands on learners, others are visual (reading) learners, some combinations of both as well as a few others. Maybe this explains why there is at least one person in the group who has problems with the rules, but picks up the ideas from rolling the dice. Likewise how do you think those rules lawyers came about? I'm not an expert about this at all, mind you!

One of the best groups I ever played with consisted of a long haul truckdriver, two guys who worked for the local teamsters union, a highschool dropout janitor, A cook with a B.A., and myself. Lots of imagination among those guys, and most of them had read Conan, Middle Earth, Kane, and Gor!

I think Doc has the right idea. A small booklet, like the Holmes campaign booklet but with more illustrations would hook a player pretty well. I love Tekumel, but the sheer volume of background intimidates most people. Tunnels and Trolls has very little background in the rule book but has very digestible system that counts on the gamers to supply the background. That can be a very tall order for people not used to setting down ideas on paper. It is relatively easy to write up a dungeon module, and give it some spit and polish. A world and all that it encompasses can be an all together different monster!

[coffee]

Sept 2, 2009 11:53:30 GMT -6 thorswulf said:

I love Tekumel, but the sheer volume of background intimidates most people.

And I'm one of those people.

I really want to love Tekumel, but it's just so alien.[i/]


Back on topic, though, what bugs me is the Referee who won't even try to explain his setting. I had one DM who had been running the same world for over ten years, so he had it pretty well down. When I asked for a list of house rules or some background or something, he just said "Oh, you'll pick it up." Well I eventually did, sort of, but it was a tough row to hoe and even a little booklet (like the holmes setting mentioned above) would have helped immensely.

I'm looking at this from the role of the player, which is where I usually fit. If I'm coming into your game, give me a place to hang my hat. But I don't really want to have to do "homework", either.

One thing I really appreciated about the "new school" games out there was when they included a piece of fiction. I hated it at the time (even though I always read it...), but now realize that it gave me a good feel for the atmosphere, if not the actual rules. And that's what I need (ymmv).

[Bard]

Sept 1, 2009 22:37:39 GMT -6 brianm said:

and most of the Monty Python quotes.

...

- Brian

Nooooo...

I'm Brian!
I'm Brian!
I'm Brian!
I'm Brian, and my wife is Brian too!

;D ;D ;D

sorry...

[badger2305]

Sept 2, 2009 12:16:22 GMT -6 coffee said:

Sept 2, 2009 11:53:30 GMT -6 thorswulf said:

I love Tekumel, but the sheer volume of background intimidates most people.

And I'm one of those people.

I really want to love Tekumel, but it's just so alien.[i/]


Back on topic, though, what bugs me is the Referee who won't even try to explain his setting. I had one DM who had been running the same world for over ten years, so he had it pretty well down. When I asked for a list of house rules or some background or something, he just said "Oh, you'll pick it up." Well I eventually did, sort of, but it was a tough row to hoe and even a little booklet (like the holmes setting mentioned above) would have helped immensely.

I'm looking at this from the role of the player, which is where I usually fit. If I'm coming into your game, give me a place to hang my hat. But I don't really want to have to do "homework", either.

One thing I really appreciated about the "new school" games out there was when they included a piece of fiction. I hated it at the time (even though I always read it...), but now realize that it gave me a good feel for the atmosphere, if not the actual rules. And that's what I need (ymmv).

Tekumel's appeal is precisely because it is so alien, or so it seems to me.

As for a little booklet helping out, don't read this thread: In Which Victor Gets Roasted Alive for Asking a Simple Question.

[yesmar]

Tékumel is the best! Aside from being so rich and vibrant, it's got that magic/technology integration that I like so much -- like Arneson's City of the Gods, but so much more deep and varied. The history of the world and its peoples is just fascinating.

I just finished rereading The Man of Gold and Flamesong. Want to get into Tékumel? Track these books down and read them. Read the five page guide to pronunciation at the end of The Man of Gold first. Practice until you can say the words smoothly. Then absorb the texts. This stuff is just awesome.

[kenmeister]

In my current campaign, my plan is to tack on the reading after playing the relevant dungeon. For instance, I've started them off with the Haunted Keep (DF23), and after they finish it, I'll have them read Lovecraft's Rats in the Walls. It's a short story, so I'll make photocopies and we'll start the next session with a quick book-club kind of atmosphere. It is why I started this thread: www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=34898. I think, for instance, it would be hard not to recreate a Clark Ashton Smith feel when running Castle Amber.