Firearms in OD&D

[thorswulf]

I know I'm opening a big can of worms with subject, but I beg your indulgance for a moment or two. First let me state that the reason I'm posting this is to get some ideas about using black powder muskets and rifles for an OD&D game set on Mars. Secondly, I have never used firearms in D&D, and most of the rules in other editions of the AD&D system didn't quite work. Quite frankly, guns are nasty weapons. If the bullet doesn't kill you, sepsis of the wounded tissue might! Not to mention hydrostatic shock, and the fact that a black powder bullet is likely to smash and break bones too.... Nasty like I said. And Cannons are even worse!

With the availability of the Space 1889 Martians and the Parroom Station miniatures I felt very strongly compelled to set up a game prior to the coming of the Earthmen, or the invading Cephalapod menace. Let's face it folks Sword and planet stuff is very much within the "scope" of D&D! So should guns in this genre. Now granted true heroes use swords to dispatch monster and villain alike, but wars are fought with guns in the Barsoom novels.

So how do you work firearms? Normal damage with a Saving Roll vs "X"? More damage? My feeling about this is that a musket at short range should kill a 1 hit die monster, regardless of type. This reflects all those soldiers of rival cities getting killed in the line of duty, etc.... What do you think?

[coffee]

If you look at the Man to Man combat tables in Chainmail (the putative combat system for D&D, even though Gygax said that no one ever used it) there is an entry for the arquebus.

So there IS precedent.

I'd say you have two options:

1) the 3LB option: All weapons do 1d6, or

2) the 'exotic weapon' option: Only Fighting-Men may use. Each time you fire, roll 1d12: on a score of 12, the weapon explodes and the firer takes 1d6 damage.

As far as sepsis from wounds goes, you'd get the same thing with swords or arrows. Most wounds in the medieval period were either mere scratches or fatal (although often not immediately). But hey, they didn't have Clerics!

[Stonegiant]

Any wound is nasty that is received in the heat of combat. Many soldiers and knights died of internal bleeding from the battering their bodies in their armor took and their armor wasn't compromised. In the original three books an arquebus is listed as an available weapon and it is listed in the Greyhawk supplement as well in the Weapons vs. AC type chart.

To me that is the beauty of the 1d6 damage system combined with the weapons vs. ac chart, a weapons effectiveness is well expressed yet at the same time all weapons are potentially deadly. I also use the d6 Hit dice and d6 HP for the PCs as well which keeps things well in check. The only system I might add to this mix is a fumble ruling of on a 1 the user must Save vs. Death or suffer the damage themselves and have their weapon destroyed.

[Deleted]

This is what I do IMC -

Thundersticks

The thunderstick is an early type of firearm, relying on a substance called smokepowder to act as the charge, and a slow-burning lighted cord (match), which is attached to a matchlock mechanism, to ignite it. While smokepowder burns (1 ounce consumes itself in one round and briefly illuminates the immediate area as a light spell would), or even explodes in the right conditions, it is chiefly used to propel a lead ball out of the barrel of a thunderstick. When the trigger is pulled, the smokepowder is ignited by the primitive matchlock mechanism, discharging the ball at an exceedingly high velocity. 1 ounce of smokepowder is needed to propel a lead ball.
Smokepowder is sold in small kegs (15 pound capacity, 20 pound total weight, 250gp each), and in water-resistant powder horns (2 pound capacity and total weight, 35gp for a full horn). If smokepowder gets wet, it cannot be used to fire a ball. Thundersitcks weigh 15 pounds (150 cn), are around 2 ½ feet in length (medium size), and can be fired every other round (and only if the character is not attacked while loading). When firing a thunderstick, all penalties for range are doubled.
If the attack roll for the thunderstick is a 1 or 2, the weapon backfires, causing 1d6 points of damage to the user. It is also fouled and cannot be used again until it has been cleaned, which takes 30 minutes (3 turns). When a thunderstick scores a hit, it normally does 1 to 9 points of damage on a 1d10. When a 10 is rolled, the die is rolled again and this amount is added to 10. Each time a 10 is rolled, the die is rolled again and added to the previous total. Thus, in a rare instance, a single shot could inflict 37 points of damage (i.e., if three consecutive 10s were rolled, followed by a 7).

Item: Thunderstick
Damage: 1d10
ROF: 1/2
Range: 50/150/210
Cost: 500GP
Enc: 150

This description is realy an amalgam of my own creation, 2nd ed., & (gasp) 3rd ed. I've used firearms of some type in most of my campaigns since day 1 - I've never had any problem with game balance (I've only ever had 1 PC use a thunderstick regularly in 17 years of gaming (d**n thief...). Since my game is a mix of RC & OD&D, the core stats are gonna be a little different, but, use what you like.
Once again, thorswulf, I haven't forgotten about the Dark Ages info I was gonna post for you, my better half & I have just been super busy this past month or so; I'll post it for you when I get more than 10 minutes free to use this here computer (I've got lots of info for you).

[angantyr]

I've been pondering this one, as well, mostly from the perspective of those that want to run more history based campaigns. Here is some preliminary rules that I have come up with (note that they are incomplete - I have not addressed misfires nor the actual weapon ranges):

Gunpowder Weapons (OPTIONAL):
There are three types. The most primitive is the Handgonne, which does d4 damage and has the following range modifiers: 0 at short, -4 at medium, and -8 at long. The Wheellock Pistol does d6 damage, and has the following range modifiers: +1 at short, -3 at medium, and -6 at long. The Arquebus does 2d4 damage and has the following range modifiers: +2 at short, -2 at medium, and -6 at long. SPECIAL: All gunpowder weapons, on a critical hit, roll damage normally except if the damage die gets the maximum score (i.e. a 4 on a d4 or 6 on a d6) you re-roll the die and add the new result to the previous score. Thus, a wheellock scores a “20” on a target and rolls a 6 for damage. The damage die is re-rolled. If the score is a 1-5, then add that to the previous 6 (producing a result from 7-11). If, however, another 6 is rolled, than it is added to the previous 6 (for a total of 12) and the damage die re-rolled yet again. There is no upper limit.

RATIONALE/DISCUSSION:
These rules are intended as a foundation for folks who want to game in historical or more modern settings, or just want to have an occasional gun as an artifact or the like. Interestingly, the Greyhawk supplement provided a line on the weapons table for the Arquebus. Note the important distinction in critical hits for firearms – the use of an “exploding” critical damage die is essential. This reflects the fact that a warrior’s skill counts for very little when a bullet comes straight at you. A sword thrust may be parried, a thrown spear or arrow dodged, but you cannot consciously dodge or parry a bullet (outside of The Matrix, of course…). The best you can do is duck for cover or run in a zig zag to throw off your enemy’s aim – but you can’t dodge, per se. And if you are hit, you could take a round that just goes through flesh but doesn’t hit anything important, or ill fortune could alter its trajectory a fraction of an inch in one direction or another and nick an artery and you bleed out. Capricious, fickle Fate! This is what transformed warfare so profoundly: while a peasant had no chance in straight up fighting against a well-trained, armored knight, the use of a firearm largely negated the professional warrior’s skill (and luck) and made the rise of mass peasant armies inevitable.

Note that the "to-hit" bonuses reflect mostly the enhanced ability to penetrate armour more than anything else. Otherwise these tended to be rather inaccurate weapons, to say the least....

Historical Tidbits (some very general):
- The handgonne was nothing more than a short tube (closed at one end) mounted on a long stick. To fire you had to touch a slow match into a small hole at the top rear of the barrel. Very crude!

- The arquebus was more like a musket, but had a matchlock mechanism. A more powerful weapon, and easier to use.

- The wheellock pistols were a bit delicate, but more reliable in operation than the other two arms. Generally geared towards the wealthy.

- The German knight and Landsknecht captain, Gotz von Berlichtigen, a.k.a. "Gotz of the Iron Hand", earned his sobriquet at the Siege of Landshut in 1504 when an arquebus ball struck him in his vambrace and drove the plates of the armour into his arm (!). In spite of the severe injury, he managed to wheel his horse about and calmly make his way to the rear, where a surgeon was called for him.

[thorswulf]

Great stuff folks! I like the idea of rolling to see if the gun explodes, but I think I'll make them roll only on a natural "1" on the d20. I think the optional Greyhawk arquebus armor adjustments are a good idea as well. I quite agree that only fighting men should be allowed to use the guns as well.

Just to clarify, the two manufacturers wake figures with guns that are pretty obvious flintlocks. So what we really have are a muzzleloading pistol, musket, carbine, and rifle. Poorer folks on Mars make do with bows! I think that a musket should proabably be about 100 gp or there abouts. Rifles about 500-1000 gp, carbines about 150gp, and pistols about 200-500 gp. The carying prices reflect craftsmanship, and decoration more than anything else. So how much should powder be? 20-50 gp sounds about right. Price varies on location and quality of course....

So waht about cannons? I think some quick and dirty rules should cover this fairly well. Obviously it is going to suck to catch a direct hit from any cannon, but I think it is more likely that players would be exposed to shot from sweepers ( think oversized shotgun), mortar bombs, and boucing shot. A 30 degree to 45 degree template should work for a sweeper, and a concentric blast circle should work for mortar bombs. I'd use the bounce rules from Chainmail for other cannon. And Rifled cannons would be either a hit or miss proposition in my opinion. Suggestions?

[dwayanu]

Let me offer this, if your "Mars" is Burroughs' Barsoom:

Ignore (as he did) what he wrote in the first novel. Being able to shoot over the horizon (IIRC what I calculated) cramps the swordsman's style too much, "honor" be d**ned!

Maybe everyone goes to the (Star Wars) Stormtrooper School of Marksmanship. Whatever the rationale, keep the effectiveness of radium rifles (or whatever) roughly on par with a bow in skilled hands.

Historically, that's probably better (weather permitting) than any firearm prior to Colt's revolver. "In skilled hands" is the fine print that led canny generals to arm their troops first with crossbows and then with muskets.

If riflery (as opposed to archery) is rather a "special effect" than a more powerful effect, then it should not much disturb the game.

NOTE: I write this having not read all the previous posts. I beg your pardon if this is unhelpful!

[added after quick scan of previous posts]: If you're dealing with flintlocks, or even with muzzle-loading rifles using expanding bullets and percussion caps, then with typical D&D assumptions (close-range skirmishes involving elite individuals) -- no problem. After the first shot (probably under 100 yards), you're probably down to sabres/tomahawks/bayonets unless everyone is very patient! The indecisive, high-casualty battles of the American Civil War demonstrate what such patience yields after a day.

Black powder produces a very literal "fog of war."

Battlefield misfires are in the neighborhood of 1 in 6. Sometimes a soldier doesn't notice and rams in another charge (perhaps leading to a catastrophic explosion). Sometimes a ramrod gets left in the barrel and so shot away.

Individuals not locked into formations should have a chance to dodge cannon balls they see coming. Plunging shots from rifled guns tend to bury themselves rather than bounce on. Shell is more a matter of luck at both ends (especially before they solved the problem of Shrapnel's premature ignition). Cannister within a few hundred yards is on a par with a close-up shotgun: nasty!

(In Traveller, I dreaded rapid-firing shotguns even more than submachineguns and assault carbines.)

In Space:1889, the Terrans bring breech-loading, magazine-fed sidearms and advanced artillery. In many cases, they are armed much as they'll be for the Great War (and in the case of battle rifles at least, even for WW2).

I'm not an expert on guns or soldiering, just a wargame / military history "grognard."

[Stonegiant]

During the American Revolution the average British veteran was expected to be able to load and fire his weapon 4-5 times per minute. They however were using smoothbore weapons which limited their max. effective range to 100 yards, out to 30 yards they were accurate beyond that things got sloppy. The American rifleman could hit a target at 300-600 yards, unfortunately their rate of fire was in the neighborhood of 1 shot per minute. The rifleman was also at a disadvantage when it came to holding the ground against regular infantry, their rifles could not mount a bayonet giving the regulars and their bayonets quite an advantage. The rifleman was supreme in the guerrilla warfare.

The Handgonne- As described earlier was a tube on the end of a stick fired by priming a touch hole. On the underside of the gun was a hook to allow the weapon to be braced for greater ease when shooting.

The Matchlock or Serpentinelock- Fired by the lowering of a burning piece of matchcord into the priming pan on the side of the barrel thus igniniting the charge within. Muskets were of heavier calibers and longer in over all length and in the earlier stages of development 1400 - 1600 AD they usually required the use of the pole with what looks like an oarlock on the end to rest the gun on when firing. In the 1600's the musket would transition from a rested weapon to a shoulder fired weapon and would used as military by European forces up and into the first half of the 18th century. Another form of the Matchlock was the Arquebus which was a shorter and usually of a lighter caliber than the muskets and were often used in a shoulder fire mode especially in the colonial areas fighting with the Indians.

Wheellocks- This firing mechanism while most known for its use as a pistol ignition system was also used on muskets and rifled weapons of the wealthy. The wheellock was expensive and time consuming to produce, was also very slow to reload (after every shot you had to pull out your spanner and wind the lock back up). They were able to often get off at least one shot in foul weather before they became fouled.

Snaphaunces, Doglocks, and Miguletlocks were all various firing mechanisms that would lead up to the development of the Flintlock as seen in the American Revolution, in many of the popular pirate movies. The flintlock would rule the battlefield until the mid 1800's when the percussion cap would come to reign supreme. There is mention of several confederate units using flintlocks for the first year or two of the American Civil War. Flintlocks would continue to be used into the 20th century in the hands of many third world nations.

Next time I will tackle artillery

[foster1941]

If I were to use firearms in D&D they'd six-shooters and/or "ray-guns" rather than matchlocks and the rules would be something like this: ROF 3, range: pistol 3/6/9, rifle: 10/20/30. All "to hit" rolls are made against AC 9 (with bonuses from magic, but not Dexterity). Successful hit = 1d6 damage (2d6 for rifle) + saving throw vs. death (magic bonuses count on save, plus the following modifiers: chain-mail armor: +1, plate armor: +2, shot by pistol: +2, at medium range: +1, at long range: +3). On a "to hit" roll of 1 the weapon jams and requires 1d3 rounds of effort to clear.

[Stonegiant]

Another factor to remember with the blackpowder firearms is the quality of the powder which could weaken or strengthen the shot. Blackpowder also fouled the barrel slowing the ROF down after about ten shots and often units would have to be pulled off the line during protracted engagements to give the troops time to clean and cool their guns and this was true of artillery as well. The average musketeer in the 1600's would carry twelve rounds of powder in their apostles and a charger to refill them all about 3 or 4 times.

[crimhthanthegreat]

Great stuff all, quite interesting. Makes me want to try this stuff out.