|
|
Post by gloriousbattle on Mar 23, 2010 12:44:23 GMT -6
blackmoor.mystara.us/Coot.htmlI never heard this before, but the arguments at the above-link seem pretty convincing. If so, boy, the old codgers could be rather bitter about this stuff, couldn't they? 
|
|
|
|
Post by makofan on Mar 23, 2010 12:50:43 GMT -6
I'm convinced!
|
|
|
|
Post by thegreyelf on Mar 23, 2010 12:51:03 GMT -6
No. Dave and Gary have both stated unequvocally that Gygax was not the Egg of Coot. The Egg was the main villain in Blackmoor LONG before any falling out between Gary and Dave, and it is apparently a reference to someone else in their mutual gaming community, though exactly who escapes me at this time.
|
|
|
|
Post by moonlapse vertigo on Mar 23, 2010 13:26:27 GMT -6
I don't have it in front of me, but I think Gygax mentions the Egg of Coot in passing in the Greyhawk Gazetteer. Seems unlikely he'd do that if it was a slam against him.
On the other hand, if it were done in friendly jest while the two were still speaking, I could see how he might go along with it.
|
|
|
|
Post by aldarron on Mar 23, 2010 13:45:05 GMT -6
<sigh> Will this rumor never die!? The Egg of Coot was a player in Dave Arnesons 1969-70 Napoleonics campaign named grEGG sCOT. Mr. Scott was not happy when Arneson switched from napoleonics to medieval fantasy "Blackmoor" games and said some less than kind things about it. According to Jeff Berry, he also played a nasty "joke" on Arneson that cost him time and money. Thus he was immortalized as the evil Egg of Coot. Note that this all took place before Gary Gygax even heard of fantasy role playing(fall '72). Nope, gygax is not coot.
|
|
|
|
Post by makofan on Mar 23, 2010 14:05:17 GMT -6
OK I am convinced again!
|
|
|
|
Post by thegreyelf on Mar 24, 2010 7:03:01 GMT -6
<sigh> Will this rumor never die!? The Egg of Coot was a player in Dave Arnesons 1969-70 Napoleonics campaign named grEGG sCOT. Mr. Scott was not happy when Arneson switched from napoleonics to medieval fantasy "Blackmoor" games and said some less than kind things about it. According to Jeff Berry, he also played a nasty "joke" on Arneson that cost him time and money. Thus he was immortalized as the evil Egg of Coot. Note that this all took place before Gary Gygax even heard of fantasy role playing(fall '72). Nope, gygax is not coot. Thanks, aldarron! I couldn't remember his name. |
|
|
|
Post by gloriousbattle on Mar 24, 2010 12:18:10 GMT -6
Okay, okay, I confess. I am the Egg of Coot.
|
|
|
|
Post by thegreyelf on Mar 24, 2010 12:40:48 GMT -6
No, no, NO!
*I* am the Egg of Coot!
|
|
|
|
Post by Finarvyn on Mar 24, 2010 16:33:26 GMT -6
It's one of those wonderful "urban legends" that never seems to go away.
NOTE TO FUTURE PARENTS: Do not give your children cool initials that spell out words like "egg" or "sob" or something like that. (I had a friend growing up who had initials SJB and whose dad always said his middle name should have been Oliver to give him the sob initials.)
|
|
eris
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 161
|
Post by eris on Mar 31, 2010 15:21:31 GMT -6
It's one of those wonderful "urban legends" that never seems to go away. NOTE TO FUTURE PARENTS: Do not give your children cool initials that spell out words like "egg" or "sob" or something like that. (I had a friend growing up who had initials SJB and whose dad always said his middle name should have been Oliver to give him the sob initials.) I'll second this. My grandmother's maiden name was...and I kid you not...Hilton Omega Gibson, HOG. Her brother's name was Eris Gilbert Gibson, EGG. My great-grandparents had much to answer for.  Of course, my parents do to...not for me, but my sister's initials are CAR...better than HOG or EGG, but not much.  But on the subject...you mean Egg of Coot *wasn't* Gary? I always assumed it was, as an in joke between Dave and Gary, though, not an insult. Live and learn. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2010 15:45:12 GMT -6
My theory: The Egg of Coot was originally based on a different person that Gygax, but after the falling out, Arneson seized on Gygax's coincidentally appropriate initials and used the Egg entry in the First Fantasy Campaign to take him to task. Rereading the entry, it sure does look like a super-villain version of Gygax! Also, I believe that the First Fantasy Campaign came out after Steading of the Hill Giant Chief, where Gygax named the Chief "Nosrna", an approximation of Arneson's name in reverse, and ascribed all manner of horrible qualities to him. The EGG's fondness for " little jokes like scrawling obscene words and phrases on the walls of latrines and garbage cans (to show it's "power"), sky writing, pulling the wings off of flies," may have been in reference to that.
Later, after the various lawsuits and gag orders and such (and the First Fantasy Campaign was more or less forgotten), the Egg was retconned again.
Just a personal theory.
|
|
|
|
Post by aldarron on Mar 31, 2010 16:06:17 GMT -6
Well... Nope. FFC was published in 1977. Arneson and Gygax's dispute didn't come to a head until a couple years later. Anyway, the material for the Egg of Coot you refer to was written sometime in 1972/73 and it unlikely Arneson deliberately altered it later to somehow have a triple meaning. The Egg of Coot was wargamer Gregg Scott, nobody else.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2010 17:04:15 GMT -6
Where was it written prior to the FFC? And am I wrong in believing that the reason the FFC was published by Judge's Guild instead of TSR was because of the bad blood between Gygax and Arneson?
|
|
|
|
Post by harami2000 on Mar 31, 2010 22:38:13 GMT -6
FFC was published in 1977. Arneson and Gygax's dispute didn't come to a head until a couple years later. Was pretty obvious what was up with the publication of The Dungeonmaster's Index (same year). And am I wrong in believing that the reason the FFC was published by Judge's Guild instead of TSR was because of the bad blood between Gygax and Arneson? TSR wouldn't publish such material in 1977, anyhow, since they didn't see any market in it... |
|
|
|
Post by aldarron on Apr 1, 2010 12:37:47 GMT -6
Where was it written prior to the FFC? And am I wrong in believing that the reason the FFC was published by Judge's Guild instead of TSR was because of the bad blood between Gygax and Arneson? I suppose it all depends on whether (or how much) you think Arneson lied. As to where it was written, here is the opening quote from "Blackmoors More Infamous Characters" FFC, in which Arneson claims the Egg etc, material was written as a handout in the first year (1971/72) for his players. "Giving a breakdown on the sheets handed out to the players, telling them of the horrors that lurked where they were living..., Of note is the fact that Krey turned traitor and joined Soukup (Egg of Coot's Lieutenant} and betrayed the Castle during the first year." Incidently, none of the rulsey bits in that section bear any relation to the D&D rules, so at least that much of the text looks to be from the first couple years and frankly, I don't think its likely he rewrote any of the text to insult Gygax when it was Scott who was the target of his ire in the first place. |
|
|
|
Post by gloriousbattle on Dec 29, 2010 20:23:05 GMT -6
Okay, but "E. Gary Gygax" and "Egg" seem a pretty close coincidence, and a far closer match than Gregg Scot.
|
|
|
|
Post by Mr. Darke on Dec 29, 2010 20:36:23 GMT -6
I think it is pretty well confirmed that the EoC existed prior to the rift and/or even before the rift. IIRC Blackmoor preceded D&D by a year or so and most of the basics of Dave's campaign were cemented by then.
|
|
|
|
Post by havard on Jan 3, 2011 16:17:56 GMT -6
I think it is pretty well confirmed that the EoC existed prior to the rift and/or even before the rift. IIRC Blackmoor preceded D&D by a year or so and most of the basics of Dave's campaign were cemented by then. Yep. The other mistake people tend to make about this is that being referenced as a villain in the Blackmoor Campaign should be seen as an insult. On the contrary, most villains in the game were played by players and got named after them, just like with the "good guys". -Havard |
|
|
|
Post by Falconer on Jan 4, 2011 1:17:42 GMT -6
I agree 100%, Havard, however, the EoC description is particularly unflattering!
|
|
|
|
Post by havard on Jan 4, 2011 10:15:15 GMT -6
I agree 100%, Havard, however, the EoC description is particularly unflattering! Well, you are right about that ;D -Havard |
|
|
|
Post by Finarvyn on Jan 4, 2011 10:22:08 GMT -6
The other mistake people tend to make about this is that being referenced as a villain in the Blackmoor Campaign should be seen as an insult. On the contrary, most villains in the game were played by players and got named after them, just like with the "good guys". It is interesting how things have changed over the decades. Many of the misconceptions out there are due to the length of time since events happened, but the rest has to be a function of the style of play that has evolved since then. As you stated, Blackmoor had players on both sides. Often the fun was in the competition between the two factions and there were certainly no bad feelings about being one of the "bad guys." Of course the old game was a blend of miniatures combat and dungeon delving, wheras today's games are predominately about the characters and the adventure rather than the battlefield. |
|
