Calithena's Alternate stat-free chargen model

[Finarvyn]

Back in the Philosophy section there was a thread dealing with Gary Gygax and character generation at GenCon. While interesting stuff, it was suggested by the posters (and agreed about by me) that it deserved its own thread instead of taking up space in the middle of another thread.

Sadly, either this software can't split threads or perhaps I'm just unable to figure out how to do it at this time. My solution is to copy and paste the content, then delete the posts from the other thread. Fingers crossed....

[Finarvyn]

calithena said:

So here's an alternate stat-free chargen model using Gary's method:

You roll 3d6 6 times, in order. There are 6 qualities: Strong, Intelligent, Wise, Tough, Agile, and Charismatic. Any roll of 15 or better indicates your character has that quality.

Alternate rule: if you qualify for no quality, you may pick one after the process is complete.

Option 2: Same as above, but rolls of 6 or less (or 5 or less) get you the qualities Weak, Dumb, Foolish, Soft, Clumsy, and Repulsive.

Alternate 2: Add up number of positive qualities and subtract negative. If the number is 1 or more, you are done. If it is 0 or less, you may add positive qualities or get rid of negative ones until your total is 1, then stop.

Option 3: On a 3 or an 18, you get 'very' in front of the quality, and the modifier changes to 2. (If you do this you might want to put the 1-point boosts at 14/7 or 6 instead of 15/6 or 5.)

I kind of like this descriptive system actually.

[Finarvyn]

jrients said:

That's very slick, Cal. I like it a lot.

[Finarvyn]

calithena said:

I think Foster first gave me this kind of idea back on K&K, where he pointed out that in BtB OD&D you could just roll say 1d6 for Con and Dex to determine whether you got the hit point and missile fire bonuses and leave it at that. Charisma's more variegated even in OD&D though.

I think you could also put in the very goods and leave out the very bads. Like so:

3-6 Weak
7-13 *no quality*
14-17 Strong
18 Very Strong

Characters who are weak in a prime can't play a class of that prime, perhaps.

Or if you want really good characters:

3-6 Weak
7-11 *no quality*
12-16 Strong
17-18 Very Strong

etc.

[Finarvyn]

calithena said:

Or, if you're one of those 'let the players have what they want' softies, first generate randomly like above. Then modify as follows:

Humans: Bump any quality up one level
Elves: Bump dexterity one level
Dwarves: Bump constitution one level
Halflings: Bump dexterity one level
Fighters: Bump strength one level
Magic-users: Bump intelligence one level
Clerics: Bump wisdom one level
Thieves: Bump dexterity one level
(Option for elves: bump dex and wis, drop con; option for halflings: bump dex and con, drop str.)

No bumps or drops can lower you below weak or raise you above very strong in a given quality.

Maybe you have people pick race and class first in this system to prevent minimaxing (hmm, I'm already really dextrous, so I'll take a dwarf fighter to get those benefits instead) type of thing.

[Finarvyn]

coffee said:

Or, if you just want to get on with things, tell your players "Pick two from Column A and one from Column B (but not one that contradicts Column A)."

Column A
------------------
Strong
Intelligent
Wise
Tough
Agile
Charismatic

Column B
------------------
Weak
Dumb
Foolish
Soft
Clumsy
Repulsive


That way, there's no dice rolling at all, and players can pick what they want so that they can be what they want.

Examples:

1. Strong, Tough, Dumb = Traditional Fighter

2. Agile, Charismatic, Foolish = Swashbuckler

3. Charismatic, Tough, Foolish = Politician

etc.


I think that descriptions are better for bringing out the role-player in people; it's harder to rule-play a description than a number. Words (like the above) evoke multiple images, whereas numbers are always relative to a base which is never clearly defined. (For instance, can you give me an example of a real, living human being with a Charisma of 13? How about 17? On the other hand, if you just say "Charismatic", people generally know what you mean.)

All in all, I like what I'm seeing here. Shows that people are still putting the spirit of the game ahead of the rules, and that's the way it should be.

[Finarvyn]

calithena said:

Here's how I'd do the 'pick 'em' method

1. Choose race

Dwarf - Tough
Wood Elf - Agile
High Elf - Wise, Agile, Soft
Hobbit - Weak, Very Agile
Human - Increase any one attribute one step

2. Choose class

Fighter - Strong
Magic User - Intelligent
Cleric - Wise
Thief - Agile (Hobbit Thieves gain Intelligent instead)
Multiclass - choose one from among classes

3. Improvement/Customization. Do this step twice.

Roll 2d6; each die indicates one of the attributes.

- If the two dice are the same, raise the appropriately numbered attribute one step.

- If the two dice are different, raise one of the attributes rolled one step and lower the other one step (your choice).


Samples:

Hobbit Fighter: starts as Very Agile (Strong and Weak cancel out). First roll: 6 2; player chooses to be Dull-Witted and Charismatic. Second roll: double fives; since the character is already Very Agile this has no effect.

So we get a Dull-Witted, Very Agile, and Charismatic hobbit fighter.


Human Wizard: player chooses to start as Very Intelligent. First roll: 1 5. Character chooses to be Weak and Agile. Second roll: double threes; character is Wise.

So we get a Weak, Very Intelligent, Wise, and Agile magic user.


Third character: High Elf F/MU. Character decides to be Intelligent from class and gets Wise, Soft, and Agile from race. First roll: 1 2; as a fighter the player doesn't want to be weak, so now he's Strong, Wise, Soft, and Agile. Second roll: 5 3; player decides again to boost the physical aspect and is now Strong, Soft, and Very Agile. A guard of the high court with magical training, this fellow's set out to experience the wider world...


Fourth character: Human Thief. Player decides to be Intelligent and Agile. First roll is a 63: Charismatic and Foolish. Second roll is 45: Soft and Very Agile. So we have an Intelligent, Foolish, Soft, Very Agile, and Charismatic thief - perfect!


Last one: let's go for a Cleric this time. Strong and Wise, this fellow starts out. First roll: 61. With the charismatic thief and warrior in the party, the player goes for Very Strong and Annoying (whatever the neg. charisma one is). Second roll: 5 3: now he is Clumsy and Very Wise.

So we get a Very Strong, Very Wise, Clumsy, and Annoying Cleric.


Adventure!


I am totally using this system or a similar one in Caverns & Chimeras whenever I get around to publishing it.

[Finarvyn]

foster1941 said:

That's a really fantastic system, but it, umm, has nothing whatsoever to do with Gary's OD&D house rules from GenCon 2007...

calithena said:

Yeah, you're right. Maybe the thread should get split from my first post down. Somehow Gary doing something with OD&D just sets my imagination running...

And here we are. Continue the discussion! :-D

[serendipity]

coffee said:

Or, if you just want to get on with things, tell your players "Pick two from Column A and one from Column B (but not one that contradicts Column A)."

Column A
------------------
Strong
Intelligent
Wise
Tough
Agile
Charismatic

Column B
------------------
Weak
Dumb
Foolish
Soft
Clumsy
Repulsive

As someone who is particularly interested in the character development part of role playing, I love this concept. I am going to send it on to my DM right away in hopes of trying it out in a gaming session in the near future.

(giggling) It does remind me of some dice I was given a few years back. You may have seen them; they're for choosing a character to play. You roll three dice to create your character:
#1: race: human, elf, gnome, halfling, dwarf, half-elf
#2: class: druid, thief, wizard, cleric, barbarian, warrior
#3: size: tiny, small, medium, large, huge, gargantuan

The other three dice help you play the game:
#4: marching order or fighting position: left front, right front, front, right flank, left flank, rear
#5: DM determines door: open (on the die twice), trapped, locked, stuck, magically locked
#6: nature of encounter: indifferent, friendly, cautious, flight, threatening, hostile

I haven't ever actually used the dice, but I found the concept of them highly amusing. Rolling the character dice, I just discovered my character is a large halfling wizard. That might complicate things.... since I don't think halflings can be wizards. Perhaps he is simply deluded into thinking he is one.

Adding calithena's designators and coffee's method of having the player choose two strengths and one drawback, I've decided my halfling will also be charismatic, intelligent, and clumsy. Now he can convince everyone else he's a wizard and claim his magic isn't working because he keeps stumbling at the importunate moment.

[crimhthanthegreat]

Very slick alternate method. House rules you gotta love'm.

[Zulgyan]

Raise Thread!

I'm sooo digging into this. Has it gone under more development?

[apparition13]

Another way to do it is to roll 3d6 and take the middle die (e.g. if the dice come up 246, the result is 4, if the come up 225 the result is 2, etc.)

So 1 = -2 or very poor, 2 = -1 or poor (or both 1 and 2 could be -1 or poor as upthread), 3-4 = 0 or average, 5 = +1 or good, 6 = +2 or very good.

You could also use this stat system for 1 roll chargen: roll 3d6, two of one color and one of another. Each of the two matched color dice are a +1, the odd dice is a -1. Assign each of the 6 stats to one of the number. If that number comes up, that stat is modified as per the dice. Multiple results of the same stat add together; possible results are 2 @ +1 and 1 @ -1, 1 @ +2 and 1 @ -1, and 1 @ + 1.

For example, if Str =1, Int =2, Wis =3, Dex =4, Con =5 and Cha = 6 (or Str/Con/Dex/Int/Wis/Cha, whichever you use), and you roll (let me get some dice - okay, 2 blue and 1 white, I'll post the + before the slash and the - after )...
16/6, the sixes cancel and strength is +1 or good/strong;
11/6, strength is +2 or very strong, and Cha is -1 or poor;
13/2, strength is is +1, Wis is +1 and Int is -1,
36/3, the three cancel so Int is normal, Cha is +1.

You could do this with variable numbers of dice in the + and - pools, though you might want to cap results at +2 and -1. For example, if you want capable characters you could roll 4 and 1,
1556/6, leading to str +1, Con +2 and the 6s cancel.
For the traditional diseased beggar maybe roll 1 and 4, 5/1556 for Str -1, Con -1 (as the +5 and one of the -5s cancel) and Cha -1. Huh, pretty classic beggar from that roll. Sometimes the dice work out.

This would actually be really convenient for DMs if you want to quickly roll up NPCs. Just decide whether you want a +, - or = number of + and - dice, and how many of each you want (more would lead to more extreme characters) and roll; instant NPC. You could even set a die to a certain number; e.g. for a high level MU set one of the + dice to 2 (Int) and roll the others.

Actually, I think this is interesting enough that I'm going to post it to a new thread.

Okay, new thread here.