Allowing Dwarf Clerics

[thegreyelf]

Just had a thought.

Greyhawk, page 5, states that among their people (but never as player characters [for some reason]) "there are clerics...found as high as level 7...these clerics are also fighters."

So why not allow Dwarf clerics...and run them just like Elves, i.e. they can switch off session-to-session between cleric and fighter?

Might make for a really neat take on dwarves.

[coffee]

You could certainly do that if you wanted. Especially since they trade off.

I've never really understood the restrictions on demi-humans as clerics, but then I started with AD&D where Dwarves could be clerics.

[Falconer]

The only reason I can come up with might be that OD&D presumes a setup akin to that in Poul Anderson’s The Broken Sword (and, to some degree, Three Hearts and Three Lions, or even C.S. Lewis’s That Hideous Strength), with its particular take on Law vs. Chaos, and Christianity vs. Paganism. Dwarves may be solid enough chaps to adventure with as a whole (though even in The Hobbit they are problematic due to excessive avarice), and it is okay for them to worship their gods. But for Humans, that worship is problematic because it is basically demonic, and most adventuring parties are supposedly humanocentric and in the business of fighting demons.

But, if that doesn’t make sense to you, and you like the idea of Dwarven Clerics in the party, there’s no reason not to go ahead and allow it!

[thegreyelf]

Sure, sure. I know you can always allow whatever you like (Heck, OD&D even says so), but I just wanted to share the idea of "switch off" Dwarf Cleric/Fighting Men the way that there are "switch off" Elf MU/FM.

Thought it was a neat idea and wanted to see what yinz thought.

[Falconer]

It’s not self-evident why you would choose to do it that way. Care to explain?

[thegreyelf]

Why not? That's the way Elves work, so why not Dwarves, too?

[coffee]

I think it makes sense.

You could also do the same with Hobbits/Halflings; switching off between Fighting-Men and Thieves. (To continue the Tolkien aspect of the discussion, the only time we really see a Hobbit acting as a thief is Bilbo -- the rest were pretty clearly Fighting-Men.)

[thegreyelf]

Now that would be pretty neat. And it would give you parity between the three nonhuman races and the way they are run.

[coffee]

Additionally, you could theoretically then stop using level limits. If your dwarf is dividing his time between Cleric and Fighting-Man, he's going to be lower level in either than a human who started adventuring with him at the same time.

So the humans still get to be the top dogs, but the demi-humans each get to be their own kind of specialist.

I like that. Have an exalt for starting such a nifty chain of thought!

[makofan]

I may steal this

[Falconer]

Mar 22, 2010 13:14:06 GMT -6 coffee said:

Additionally, you could theoretically then stop using level limits. If your dwarf is dividing his time between Cleric and Fighting-Man, he's going to be lower level in either than a human who started adventuring with him at the same time.

Actually, that doesn’t follow. First of all, no-one ever said an Elf (or, in this case, Dwarf) needs to split his time equally between the two classes. So he could just always adventure as a Fighter, and keep fully abreast of a Human Fighting-Man.

Secondly, Dwarf Fighter/Cleric who put 2000 XP into Fighter and 1500 XP into Cleric is at Level 2/2; a Human Fighting-Man with 3500 XP is Level 2. Granted, he will soon be Level 3, but in general “multi-class” characters pay small price (~1 level behind) for their versatility. Regards.

[coffee]

Both good points. Here are my responses:

In the first case, if a Dwarf wants to be just a fighter he can -- that's the beauty of it. He doesn't have to be a cleric; he just has that option. And in that case, I think he should be able to keep up with the human fighter.

And in the second case, I've never in my life seen experience come out in such a way that it would end up like your example. It could happen, I guess, I've just never seen it.

But my point was that it was something one could consider. I wasn't advocating a wholesale rules change. It would be up to each individual referee.

Anyway, the base idea from the original post is still valid, even with level limits -- when a dwarf fighter tops out, he can still adventure as a Cleric. He'd still have his hit points (I would think, although I've seen this go both ways...). More importantly, he'd still have all his stuff (magic armor and weapons, etc.).

[thegreyelf]

I tend to agree with Falconer that the level limits should stay. But I posted a blog about this that puts all my thoughts in one place.

[vito]

So Dwarves switch between FM and C, Elves switch between MU and FM, and Hobbits switch between FM and T.
For purposes of symmetry, can we have a race that switches between MU and T? Maybe Gnomes? Or talking house cats?
*edit*
And a race that switches between MU and C?
And a race that switches between C and T?

[tombowings]

Mar 23, 2010 15:45:45 GMT -6 @vito said:

So Dwarves switch between FM and C, Elves switch between MU and FM, and Hobbits switch between FM and T.
For purposes of symmetry, can we have a race that switches between MU and T? Maybe Gnomes? Or talking house cats?
*edit*
And a race that switches between MU and C?
And a race that switches between C and T?

I like the idea of half-orcs as switching between clerics and thieves (although I'm not sure why).

[vito]

Mar 23, 2010 16:02:19 GMT -6 tombowings said:

I like the idea of half-orcs as switching between clerics and thieves (although I'm not sure why).

Tolkien's half-orcs were infiltrators bred to look like men and sneak around among them. It is rumored that the men of Bree have some orcish blood in them. The thief/assassin part certainly fits.
I can see half-orcs as chaotic clerics. Instead of wearing crosses, they wear The Eye of Sauron or The Hand of Saruman. Maybe lift the restriction on bladed weapons and give them some other restriction instead?

[apeloverage]

"Dwarf clerics are found as high as 7th level (Lama), and they can cure and resurrect their own."

I wonder if that's meant to imply that they can only cure and resurrect other dwarves?

[thegreyelf]

Certainly sounds like it, doesn't it?

[thegreyelf]

Mar 23, 2010 15:45:45 GMT -6 @vito said:

So Dwarves switch between FM and C, Elves switch between MU and FM, and Hobbits switch between FM and T.
For purposes of symmetry, can we have a race that switches between MU and T? Maybe Gnomes? Or talking house cats?
*edit*
And a race that switches between MU and C?
And a race that switches between C and T?

I think that's taking things a bit too far. My idea doesn't add anything to the mix (though in your game you're obviously open to do so at your table). I just wanted to look at what's there and adjust for parity and conceptualism (if I may coin a term).

Unless, as your remark about talking house cats indicates, you're being snarky...

[vito]

I'm not being snarky. For the longest time I have wanted to play a 'Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath' themed D&D game with talking cats and ghouls as playable characters.

[thegreyelf]

Ever play WitchCraft? There's a race of intelligent magic "talking" (they actually use telepathy) cats in there called the Bast.

[capheind]

I have very vauge memories of using Switch-hitting elves and other Demi-humans a very long time ago. But I never remember anybody roleplaying the reasons behind it.

For a magic user it may just be as easy as

"Why aren't you putting your sword in your pack"

"Because I intend to cast spells today and the steel would prevent that"

As for dwarves, I kinda like the idea of the dwarf moving to the edge of camp, pulling out earthen, and in the opinions of human characters satanic, figures, and praying to them while ritually preparing himself with sacred soils and mineral creams.

[Lord Kilgore]

Mar 23, 2010 15:45:45 GMT -6 @vito said:

So Dwarves switch between FM and C, Elves switch between MU and FM, and Hobbits switch between FM and T.
For purposes of symmetry, can we have a race that switches between MU and T?

Could be that FM is sort of a standard in original edition and that demi-humans would always be partially FM. Makes sense as the rules as written are that all demi-humans are at least partially FM.

Of course, that sort of thing depends on the campaign and individual sensibilities.

[pineappleleader]

I once played a Dwarven Cleric in a 1e AD&D 24 hour test dungeon. This was at the time all those articles came out in Dragon Magazine about non-human Pantheons. The combination of Dwarf and Cleric was very powerful and really unbalanced the game. Dwarven Fighter/Cleric would have been worse. We played 24 hours straight and promoted characters "in dungeon". We all started at 1st level. I think the Dwarf Cleric finished at 8th level. Obviously the dungeon was run fast and loose. I played rather conservatively (for the group I was with). Many of the other characters were just as bad.

IIRC starting at about 5th or 6th level play balance was totally lost. It might not have been so bad in a normal pace game, but non-human Cleric/X quickly became too powerful for playing with regular characters.

Switching between classes, for each session of play or game day, would probably control this somewhat. (I never liked this style of play). It also depends on the player. I have seen Mega-Characters run with discretion by some and get totally out of control when run by others. 1e AD&D Fighter/Magic User/ Thief, Elves come to mind.

[thegreyelf]

I'm confused...in 1e AD&D dwarves were allowed to be clerics by default; there was no such restriction in place.

How exactly was it unbalancing? Seems odd to say that about any race/class combo in AD&D 1e.

[TheMyth]

Apr 8, 2010 10:24:28 GMT -6 thegreyelf said:

I'm confused...in 1e AD&D dwarves were allowed to be clerics by default; there was no such restriction in place.

How exactly was it unbalancing? Seems odd to say that about any race/class combo in AD&D 1e.

In the AD&D PHB, only NPC dwarves could be clerics.

It wasn't until Unearthed Arcana (or the Dragon issue the rule change was based upon) that PC dwarves could be clerics.

I also don't see how it's so unbalancing. Unless something was done wrong, like adding hit dice (like 3E) instead of averaging.

For instance, a Dwarf Cleric 4/Fighter 4 (16000+ xp) would fight as a Fighter, use all weapons, cast spells like a 4th level Cleric, save using the best number of either Cleric or Fighter, but would have the hit dice of (Fighter 4 + Cleric 4)/2.

An equivalent xp-ed Fighter 5 would be about a level ahead, have more hit dice, but no Cleric spells and probably slightly worse saves. That's the perk to multi-classing though. And why there were level limits.

[pineappleleader]

It has been a long time...the character was set up correctly. Dwarves are a pretty tough race in 1e AD&D anyway. With all the Dwarf Race abilities and saves with Cleric Class saves, abilities and spells added on top it makes quite a mega-character. If you roll good hp dice, Dwarves have a "good" Constitution, even averaging them is not a big handicap. Multi-class characters always use the best save of their classes. The combination of a strong Race with a strong Class makes a strong character. Fighter/Cleric Dwarves are even stronger.

[Arminath]

One thing to remember in OD&D, Clerics could cast 5th level spells (Raise Dead) at 7th level, hence the reference in Greyhawk about Dwarven Clerics healing and raising their own. AD&D rejiggered the spell tables so 5th level spells were not recieved until 9th level, but Dwarven Clerics could only reach 8th level and not raise their own any more at all.

I don't see how they are so over powering though with an OD&D/Greyhawk level limit of Fighting-man 8th/Cleric 7th. AD&D raised this to Fighting-man 9th/Cleric 8th, allowing the founding of a stronghold and gaining of followers, now that seems a bit much to me!

[thegreyelf]

Seriously...dwarves weren't any more powerful a race than any other in AD&D. They had that underground sense ability and bonuses when fighting goblinoids and giants, but that doesn't innately make them ridiculously powerful as clerics.

In OD&D they would be even less powered up due to the fact that races don't get ability bonuses (though dwarves would get sick saves, but that applies no matter what class they are).

[graymouser]

Apr 9, 2010 18:04:18 GMT -6 Arminath said:

One thing to remember in OD&D, Clerics could cast 5th level spells (Raise Dead) at 7th level, hence the reference in Greyhawk about Dwarven Clerics healing and raising their own. AD&D rejiggered the spell tables so 5th level spells were not recieved until 9th level, but Dwarven Clerics could only reach 8th level and not raise their own any more at all.

The class level limit tables in UA are for multi-classed PC's. Single classed demi-humans can exceed the listed limits by 2. According to the table in UA (p. 8), Dwarven Clerics who are multi-classed can advance to 11th level if they have a WIS of 18. Single class Dwarven Clerics, therefore can advance up to 13th level! Either level would allow Dwarven Clerics to cast raise dead (on dwarves or anyone else, as far as 1e is concerned).

A quick check of the UA errata in Dragon #103 indicates that the level limits in the book are, in fact, correct. That's a pretty high level Cleric you're going to have if you run a Dwarf!