dwarven paladins in OD&D?

[grodog]

Liberal snipping for a tangent thread:

admin said:

I'd like to discuss the merits of level restriction by race.

Dwarves could progress as far as Myrmadon (6th level) in Fighting Man.

Greyhawk relaxed this somewhat with provisions that non-humans with high stats could perhaps advance higher. Maybe this is where the whole stat-inflation thing got started?

* Dwarves with STR of 17 could be 7th level FIghting Men, those with STR of 18 could be 8th level.

Has anyone who's played OD&D allowed dwarven paladins as PCs?

I recall Roger Moore or Kim Mohan discussing in an early '80s Dragon, stating that the rules for paladins in Supplement 1: Greyhawk were sufficiently vague that a dwarf could qualify for them if a 17 CHA, Lawful fighter from the get-go. I just re-read GH and while it doesn't specify for paladins to be human, I figure that Moore/Mohan was stretching it a bit. (Or, perhaps they were merely prefiguring 3.x and ahead of their time? ).

Also, does anyone else recall this passage?---offhand I can't find it via google.

[coffee]

I don't know the Dragon reference, but I just checked my copy of Greyhawk and it doesn't specify a race at all -- so by the book, a Dwarf could be a Paladin. As, indeed, could an Elf or a Hobbit (now THERE's a scary thought...)

[Finarvyn]

I think that Paladins are one of the hardest characters to play well. They're also one of my favorite classes.

A couple of semi-ramdon thoughts here:

1. I dislike the notion of "Paladin of (insert deity here)". I know that Clerics can have any god in the book, but somehow the notion of a Holy Paladin of Zeus seems wrong to me. Of course, the LBB are vague about gods for either clerics or paladins and may assume some monotheistic deity.

2. Like most everyone, I just assumed that Paladins had to be human, and it's interesting to note that the rules are vauge in that regard.

3. I usually go through an "interview" process with anyone who wants to play a paladin. Why do they want to do it? What are they using as a "role model"? I don't want to jave people play paladins just to get the neat bonuses, but want them to play them as a paladin ought to be played.

4. In light of this post, if a person could make it through #3 (and had that pesky 17 Charisma) I would probably allow them to play a non-human paladin.

[serendipity]

coffee said:

I don't know the Dragon reference, but I just checked my copy of Greyhawk and it doesn't specify a race at all -- so by the book, a Dwarf could be a Paladin. As, indeed, could an Elf or a Hobbit (now THERE's a scary thought...)

What a wild thought, to have a hobbit become a paladin. That would be challenging and probably a lot of fun to play, though it always seemed to me that hobbits were somewhat chaotic in nature and mostly attuned to the carnal and the mundane, and thus not as likely to have a paladin's calling. And, horrors, I freely admit that my view of most demihumans comes from LotR and not OD&D books, so you may feel this is totally off base.

However, when I looked at my Men & Magic book (white box set), it said halflings were limited to the Fighting-Man class. Is that true for other editions and suppliments? That would seem to kibosh at least the halfling paladin.

[calithena]

Going into AD&D days, LG Dwarven fighters who met the pre-requisites serving one of that pantheon (Clanggedin?) could function as paladins in some form or another. This was not-quite-but-near-official.

The Paladin is an archetypally Christian character class. Moslem-style paladins, paladins of sun gods, paladins of a generic 'good' force, paladins of healing gods and goddesses, gods of justice all sort of work - a stretch but not too much of one. Beyond that, I think it breaks down.

In the case of Dwarves, a faerie race, it doesn't make a lot of mythological sense to let them be Paladins.

It's true that if you let Dwarves be protagonists rather than supporting characters and break down the idea of a Dwarven monoculture their racial temperament is not so far from what might make a good paladin, which is probably why people have flirted with this idea for so long.

For me, I prefer to situate OD&D somewhere between The Hobbit and Three Hearts and Three Lions, and there the DP doesn't make much sense. And if I extend it from there I extend it in the direction of weird science-fantasy, lizard-men and bug-men and atlanteans and the like, and none of that makes me want to humanize the old faerie races especially.

[serendipity]

calithena said:

In the case of Dwarves, a faerie race, it doesn't make a lot of mythological sense to let them be Paladins.

Could you explain that to me? What makes dwarves related to the fae folk?

--Sere
P.S. In response to my own post (lol), I was thinking of a paladin as being more than a fighting man, but if it's just a super-committed one, then I guess halflings are back in the running.

[evreaux]

serendipity said:

What makes dwarves related to the fae folk.

In mythology and folklore, the dwarf, elf, gnome, troll, ogre, giant, fairy, and spirit were all included in a sort of nebulous "fantastic and mysterious being in the wild" category. The names are frequently used for similar sorts of beings--i.e., they aren't nearly as neatly parsed and delineated as they typically are in gaming books.

[mahrundl]

calithena said:

Going into AD&D days, LG Dwarven fighters who met the pre-requisites serving one of that pantheon (Clanggedin?) could function as paladins in some form or another. This was not-quite-but-near-official.

Continuing slightly off-topic:

I had a legally obtained Dwarven Paladin in pre-UA AD&D once (spoiler: you need a LG Dwarven Fighter to get the Heart of Law in the Judges Guild Dark Tower module).

I don't recall encountering many problems* that related to his being a Dwarf Paladin that he wouldn't have had if he was human. While the OD&D and AD&D Dwarves are by no means identical, I can't offhand think of any reason why an OD&D Dwarf Paladin would necessarily be much more of an issue.

* Other than getting people to believe him:

"You're a what?!? Pull the other one, it has bells attached..."

[crimhthanthegreat]

I generally only let humans play paladins, since they are the ultimate elite human fighter IMC. I do have something that is some what similar for the other main character races. Humans have Paladins, Dwarves have Defenders as a fighter subclass, Elves have the Wardens, Gnomes have the Protectors and Hobbits have the Keepers. Each of these have their own flavor unique to their race and they are not common and their numbers overall are always small.

[grodog]

Thanks for the replies so far folks. Any ideas on the Dragon reference?

[calithena]

13) If a lawful good dwarven fighter appeals to Beronar, dwarf goddess of safety, truth, and home, for a particularly worthy purpose and makes a large sacrifice, she has a 5% chance to turn the dwarf into a paladin for 3-6 days.

This was one of my winning answers to Bill Webb's trivia contest back in the early NG days.

It's wherever the first 'gods of the dwarves' article appeared, I think it was in the sixties.

[calithena]

Looked it up on the Dragon Archive, it was issue 58.

[grodog]

That's not the reference I'm thinking of; I'll have to do some digging once I reinstall the Dragon Archive search engine....

[crimhthanthegreat]

Anyone come up with the reference yet?

[Falconer]

For what it's worth, I recall many a casual conversation with this or that older friend or high school teacher who mentioned playing an Elf Paladin and other unusual combination when they played with OD&D in their youth. I was left with the impression that OAD&D's restrictions were not in the spirit of OD&D, a game in which "There is no reason that players cannot be allowed to play as virtually anything, provided they begin relatively weak and work up to the top, i.e., a player wishing to be a Dragon would have to begin as let us say, a `young' one and progress upwards in the usual manner, steps being predetermined by the campaign referee."

Still, a referee can quite legitimately rule that dragons exist in his campaign, and elves exist in his campaign, and paladins exist in his campaign, so all are fine... but elven paladins don't exist in his world so you can't be one. Regards.

[crimhthanthegreat]

As I noted previously, I don't allow non-human paladins IMC, but I do provide a special class for each of the other races. There is no reason why you couldn't allow dwarves to be paladins if you want to. Your campaign, your rules.

[serendipity]

falconer said:

Still, a referee can quite legitimately rule that dragons exist in his campaign, and elves exist in his campaign, and paladins exist in his campaign, so all are fine... but elven paladins don't exist in his world so you can't be one. Regards.

I promise I read your entire post, falconer, but I have to say that my first reaction while I was reading it was, "I could play a dragon paladin? Kewlness!"

[grodog]

My recollection of REM's reference was more that it was a loophole rather than a house rule. I need to reinstall the Dragon Archive software to run some searches, I guess....

[grodog]

While digging around for WG4 errata in the Dragon Archive today, I found a pointer to the Dragon Magazine reference I was thinking of, in the Letters column of issue 159:

Letter Q #6. Is there any such thing as a lawful-neutral dwarven paladin? I seem to recall something in a previous issue about just such a character. If so, what are the rules for one?

Answer to Q #6. The reference to lawful-neutral dwarven paladins came from an editorial comment I added to a "Sage Advice" question in issue #118, page 69. Basically, a poorly explained rule in an extremely old set of rules for the D&D® game (Supplement 1, Greyhawk) produced some confusion that allowed oddities like the above to appear. The glitch was fixed in later rule books, but a few of the more unusual character types continued to see play in various campaigns.

Since the Dragon 118 (February 1987) reference is an aside from Roger Moore, the above "I" in the answer must be REM also. Here's the issue 118 comment:

[There are a few lawful-neutral dwarven paladins running around in certain long-term AD&D® and D&D® game campaigns because of a poorly explained rule in the old Supplement 1, Greyhawk, for the original boxed D&D® game set -- RM].

The full paragraph, for context, reads:

Bringing existing characters into line with new rules is always difficult, but the degree to which this change is mandatory
in a given campaign is a matter for the DM and player to decide together. If the DM wants to include the full gamut of new rules in the campaign and wants the characters to conform, the player and DM can discuss the best method of working it out. It is not mandatory that the character change at all; your campaign is your own game, and it can be run as you please. [There are a few lawful-neutral dwarven paladins running around in certain long-term AD&D® and D&D® game campaigns because of a poorly explained rule in the old Supplement 1, Greyhawk, for the original boxed D&D® game set -- RM].

So, not only was the dwarven paladin an interpretation running around in the OD&D days, but there were apparently LN dwarven paladins!

[Finarvyn]

Apr 25, 2009 13:27:56 GMT -6 grodog said:

not only was the dwarven paladin an interpretation running around in the OD&D days, but there were apparently LN dwarven paladins!

An interesting reference, and well researched.

I don't remember reading those particular passages in Dragon back in the day, or if I read them I never drew any particular significance to them at the time.

In our game in the 1970's the idea of the dwarven paladin never came up. We interpreted that paladins could only be human and nobody ever really went back to challenge this assertion. The same was true about rangers, bards, monks, druids, and other expansion classes -- these were human-only class options. We did allow dwarves and elves to become thieves, but this was clearly spelled out in the supplements.

I think our thinking at the time was that elves and dwarves had a special spot in the rules, one of both advantages and disadvantages at the same time....
Advantages included the special abilities such as seeing in the dark, detection of secret doors or sloping passages, the elven ability to be a fighter-MU, and so on.
Disadvantages included level limits, class limits, and the like.

I just don't recall anyone arguing for an interpretation that would allow for dwarven paladins.

Not sayin' it was the "right way" to play it, but that's what we did back in the old days....

[scottenkainen]

I revive this old thread, not because I have anything productive to add, but to share that I really want to play a dwarf paladin. I've been wanting to break this rule for years now and have even recently made the dwarf paladin, in the hopes of playing it someday. All I need now is a campaign to join that uses OD&D and the Greyhawk supplement, and no house rules that close the dwarf paladin loophole.

~Scott "-enkainen" Casper

[busman]

Apparently the first mention of the lawful neutral dwarven paladin was in Dragon 39, pg 30 in SAGE ADVICE

Question: Is there such a thing as a lawful neutral Paladin? We have a dwarf who is one.
Answer: No, there is no such thing as a lawful neutral Paladin— and, for that matter, there is no such thing as a dwarven Paladin.

Then in Dragon 46, pg 4 to OUT ON A LIMB

Dwarven Paladin?
In an issue of Dragon in the article Giants in the Earth, one of the "Giants” was a 14th-level dwarven Paladin. Yet dwarves can’t be Paladins. How is this possible?

For an answer to this question, we sought out Tom Moldvay, one of the co-creators of Giants in the Earth. Tom’s response is as follows: “Since the heroes in Giants in the Earth come from literature and not gaming, they should not be expected to always fit neatly into game terms. The order of priority when designing heroes for Giants in the Earth is 1)faithfulness to the character as he or she appears in literature and 2) faithfulness to the game system. In AD&D dwarves cannot be paladins, yet the term “paladin” is an apt description of Durathror (Giants in the Earth, Dragon #27), so we artificially made him a dwarven paladin. Since he is an NPC, he is not likely to upset the balance of play as long as the DM is careful. The best way to look at Durathror as a dwarven paladin.

[Finarvyn]

Nice research, busman. Interesting to note that folks have been asking this question about dwarven paladins for a long time.

What has always bothered me about the Paladin class is that I feel most people don't play them well at all. My concept of a Paladin (biased, I'm sure) is that of an ultra-good knight, like one of Camelot, willing to sacrifice himself to save the party. Most people in my experience treat them like generic fighters who have cool extra powers. I was playing in a game just a few weeks ago with this teenaged kid whose paladin stood in the corner of a room shooting arrows at ghouls who were munching on the rest of the party, and I was trying to explain to him that paladins don't act that way. He looked at me like I was nuts, and I suspect he's never read any King Arthur stories. I just don't get the impression that a lot of players have the right mentality to play a paladin as it ought to be played.

Is there such a thing as a lawful neutral Paladin? We have a dwarf who is one.

I like this quote, regardless of the answer given in Sage Advice. I mean, the guy already has a character like this in the campaign so why bother to ask if he can do it?

[Porphyre]

He lived in fear that his dwarven paladin might be zapped into nothingness by a "only-by-the-book" DM, maybe.

[scottenkainen]

Aug 9, 2013 5:28:53 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

What has always bothered me about the Paladin class is that I feel most people don't play them well at all. My concept of a Paladin (biased, I'm sure) is that of an ultra-good knight, like one of Camelot, willing to sacrifice himself to save the party. Most people in my experience treat them like generic fighters who have cool extra powers. I was playing in a game just a few weeks ago with this teenaged kid whose paladin stood in the corner of a room shooting arrows at ghouls who were munching on the rest of the party, and I was trying to explain to him that paladins don't act that way. He looked at me like I was nuts, and I suspect he's never read any King Arthur stories. I just don't get the impression that a lot of players have the right mentality to play a paladin as it ought to be played.

Depending on the circumstances, I might have looked at you like that too. Being willing to sacrifice yourself doesn't mean fighting stupid. If ghoul reinforcements were streaming in towards the melee and I was in a position to take them out with my bow, that's what I would have my paladin do too. Now, if he was shooting at the ghouls in the melee and putting his teammates in greater danger, then that was cowardly and deserved the rebuke.

~Scott "-enkainen" Casper

[talysman]

Aug 9, 2013 9:15:21 GMT -6 scottenkainen said:

Aug 9, 2013 5:28:53 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

What has always bothered me about the Paladin class is that I feel most people don't play them well at all. My concept of a Paladin (biased, I'm sure) is that of an ultra-good knight, like one of Camelot, willing to sacrifice himself to save the party. Most people in my experience treat them like generic fighters who have cool extra powers. I was playing in a game just a few weeks ago with this teenaged kid whose paladin stood in the corner of a room shooting arrows at ghouls who were munching on the rest of the party, and I was trying to explain to him that paladins don't act that way. He looked at me like I was nuts, and I suspect he's never read any King Arthur stories. I just don't get the impression that a lot of players have the right mentality to play a paladin as it ought to be played.

Depending on the circumstances, I might have looked at you like that too. Being willing to sacrifice yourself doesn't mean fighting stupid. If ghoul reinforcements were streaming in towards the melee and I was in a position to take them out with my bow, that's what I would have my paladin do too. Now, if he was shooting at the ghouls in the melee and putting his teammates in greater danger, then that was cowardly and deserved the rebuke.

At first, I read it the way you read it, thinking the complaint was about paladins using missile weapons or not rushing headlong into combat. But rereading it, I see he says "shooting arrows at ghouls who were munching on the rest of the party". So, definitely hanging back, outside of danger, and firing arrows into a melee. Not very paladin-y at all.

Paladins don't have to rush headlong into a fight, if their comrades are being attacked. But they have to think about their comrades *first* and the enemy *second*.

[oldkat]

I wouldn't let any Dragon article dissuade me from allowing a dwarf-elf-hobbit paladin in my world if I were running an OD&D + GH campaign. Dragon is post-GH, and GH makes it clear that any Fighter can become a paladin (at any time) as long as he has the 17 CH minimum.

Serendipity laments:
"However, when I looked at my Men & Magic book (white box set), it said halflings were limited to the Fighting-Man class. Is that true for other editions and suppliments? That would seem to kibosh at least the halfling paladin."

OD&D minus GH does not even have paladins. So, if one is assuming paladins exist, they must get their authority to do so via Greyhawk; if you're using GH, then use it. It doesn't limit paladins to human.

[Deleted]

On the question of "Are dwarven paladins allowed," the correct answer is "Mu."

"decide how you would like it to be, and then make it just that way!" -- Dungeons and Dragons, Vol. 3, Page 36.

[snorri]

Aug 9, 2013 0:36:41 GMT -6 busman said:

Apparently the first mention of the lawful neutral dwarven paladin was in Dragon 39, pg 30 in SAGE ADVICE

Question: Is there such a thing as a lawful neutral Paladin? We have a dwarf who is one.
Answer: No, there is no such thing as a lawful neutral Paladin— and, for that matter, there is no such thing as a dwarven Paladin.

Then in Dragon 46, pg 4 to OUT ON A LIMB

Dwarven Paladin?
In an issue of Dragon in the article Giants in the Earth, one of the "Giants” was a 14th-level dwarven Paladin. Yet dwarves can’t be Paladins. How is this possible?

For an answer to this question, we sought out Tom Moldvay, one of the co-creators of Giants in the Earth. Tom’s response is as follows: “Since the heroes in Giants in the Earth come from literature and not gaming, they should not be expected to always fit neatly into game terms. The order of priority when designing heroes for Giants in the Earth is 1)faithfulness to the character as he or she appears in literature and 2) faithfulness to the game system. In AD&D dwarves cannot be paladins, yet the term “paladin” is an apt description of Durathror (Giants in the Earth, Dragon #27), so we artificially made him a dwarven paladin. Since he is an NPC, he is not likely to upset the balance of play as long as the DM is careful. The best way to look at Durathror as a dwarven paladin.

As far as I can see, Moldvay had a limited access to D&D books. Schick said in an interview Tom had an incomplete photocopy and undesrtood years later what was missing. He alos had many houserules, some of them being conserved in Challenges games system. So I translate this quotes as : "sorry, that's what I did in my own Knwon World camapign, but you shoudln't do that" - remeber the heroes presented in Giants of the earth were really used in game as a middll-point between high level PCs and gods.

[Falconer]

The cool thing about statting out an NPC, or a PC to be used in a one-shot adventure, is that you don’t have to worry about advancement, and therefore you don’t have to worry about staying within the strictures of the class system.