capheind
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 236
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Post by capheind on Jan 28, 2010 0:56:32 GMT -6
Based on what little I know of middle ages warfare I'm still perplexed as to why the Sword features more prominently in Fantasy fiction than the rich diversity of polearms which, historically, outnumbered them.
How common are pole-arms in your games? any interesting uses? Variations?
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Post by coffee on Jan 28, 2010 1:29:36 GMT -6
Based on what little I know of middle ages warfare I'm still perplexed as to why the Sword features more prominently in Fantasy fiction than the rich diversity of polearms which, historically, outnumbered them. Simple: The sword was the weapon of the nobility (knights and such -- the hero types) whereas the polearm was the weapon of the peasant.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jan 28, 2010 1:31:34 GMT -6
Polearms were often cheap to make, and could be effective in large scale organised units of fighting men.
But most adventuring is done by small groups of heroic individuals who usually have gold aplenty (well, at least enough to buy a fancy sword) and who fight more or less individually. And many underground catacombs, winding stairs, and subterranean crawlways are scarcely large enough to swing a sword, let alone a polearm.
In my game I have pole arms cheaper and more dangerous (i.e., doing more damage) than swords, but they attack at -2 to hit in confined spaces. I recall there was one PC who insisted on using his beloved pole-axe no matter how inappropriate or impossible it was. But most of the other PCs I remember have been rather practical and used regular sized weaponry.
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Post by aldarron on Jan 28, 2010 6:44:41 GMT -6
Try riposting with a polearm and will begin to understand why. Gygax had a veritible fetish for these things. Unearthed Arcana has 6 pages devoted to pole arms.
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Post by tavis on Jan 28, 2010 8:22:33 GMT -6
Harry Harrison's The Hammer and the Cross (which, IIRC, I was turned onto by the Fiction sub-board here and really enjoyed) has its main character invent the halberd, specifically as a weapon for peasants as coffee says. Harrison goes into some Gygaxian reveries about the utility of the halberd, the accuracy of which I can't judge, but even for him the bottom line is that a sword is the ideal weapon - assuming that you have trained from birth to develop the strength and skill to wield it (sort of like the English longbow) and are a knight or Viking whose personal honor is more important than the humble discipline of fighting in formation. The archetype of the PC fighting man certainly fits into both the lifetime-of-training and do-your-own-thing categories. This might be one justification for restricting some kinds of weapons to fighting men, although it'd point in a different direction where 2-handed weapons would be more readily used by other classes... Jerry Pournelle's King David's Spaceship and/or Janissaries talk about the tactics of a pike, and Elizabeth Moon's Deed of Paksennarion describes training with one to avoid whacking your allies in the head with it all the time. They're surprisingly long - 10 to 20 feet - and are probably of more use to dungeon adventurers as a trap-springing 10' pole replacement than a primary weapon. I read all the above pike books around the same time following advice at EN World about boning up on D&D tactics when I was working on a 4E project, but found that their focus is on massed units in formation. New-school D&D play certainly looks more like the tactics of a streetball team or a combined-arms infantry squad, and while in theory old-school D&D could get more like a medieval battlefield because the combat system handles lots of henchmen attacking in unison, in practice combat usually feels like "melee is fast and furious" instead of tactical and coordinated.
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capheind
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 236
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Post by capheind on Jan 28, 2010 10:53:07 GMT -6
I wouldn't really call the sword the ideal weapon, expensive, brittle, and if you block on the honed edge you might as well throw it away. With a pole arm you just take the head and get a new stick Point a bunch of halberds forward and you have a wall of spikes in the corridor for any oncoming wandering monsters, get some room to swing and you have a devastating Axe with leverage to spare, plus you don't have to carry around that 10' pole. Also while pikes ranged 10 to 20 ft, your average combat spear or pole-arm usually wasn't much taller than the person wielding it, although speaking of 20' pikes, how cruel would it be to savage your PC's with a squad of pole-arm wielding kobold, a wall of thrusting spikes advancing down the dungeon corridor
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capheind
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 236
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Post by capheind on Jan 28, 2010 11:09:37 GMT -6
I geuss what I'm getting at is that I know everyone who plays a Fighter of any sort in my new game is going to go strait for the swords, which in some cases would not actually be the most appropriate weapon for a dungeon. Swords need a good deal of clearance to gain any real strength in the swing, whereas most pole-arms were pointed to still act as a spear, no clearance necessary, just don't miss
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Post by coffee on Jan 28, 2010 11:19:44 GMT -6
I know a fighter who routinely uses a mace. And I knew one a while back who used a halberd.
But other than that, yeah, they all use swords.
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eris
Level 4 Theurgist
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Post by eris on Jan 28, 2010 15:19:41 GMT -6
Based on what little I know of middle ages warfare I'm still perplexed as to why the Sword features more prominently in Fantasy fiction than the rich diversity of polearms which, historically, outnumbered them. How common are pole-arms in your games? any interesting uses? Variations? Probably, less common than they should be! Henchmen with short pikes forming a phalanx of sharp points ahead of your fighters with swords/axes/maces and with bowmen/spell slingers behind them would be hard to beat in a corridor or a doorway. I think a 10' pole with a detachable screw, or clamp, on spear point would be a wonderful accessory for your adventuring party.
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Post by moonlapse vertigo on Jan 31, 2010 15:15:59 GMT -6
literary traditions aside, I know a lot of players are afraid to stray away from swords for the plain fact that they will miss out on 80% of the magic weapons. It's an unfortunate meta-gaming side effect, but seems to be true. How many legendary Ranseurs or Bohemian Earspoons are found in your campaigns? Even axes -- a mainstay of viking/S&S imagery -- get shorted when it comes to the magic item tables.
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Post by apparition13 on Jan 31, 2010 21:28:55 GMT -6
literary traditions aside, I know a lot of players are afraid to stray away from swords for the plain fact that they will miss out on 80% of the magic weapons. It's an unfortunate meta-gaming side effect, but seems to be true. How many legendary Ranseurs or Bohemian Earspoons are found in your campaigns? Even axes -- a mainstay of viking/S&S imagery -- get shorted when it comes to the magic item tables. Speaking of Ranseurs, I used them all the time in AD&D. Decent damage, could be set against charge, could unhorse, and best of all could disarm.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2010 23:39:09 GMT -6
Look at history. A sword was very rarely the first choice of weapon. Samurai started most battles with a bow or spear depending on the time period. Medieval knights started most fights with a lance, assorted axes, picks or maces and drew the sword when they ran out of other toys. A sword was not a very common weapon for most warriors. The main exception being Romans with their shortswords and even they started most battles by throwing pilum.
Most fantasy rules don't make this differentiation. Swords were a side arm for most people, mostly rich people. Easier to carry then axes or spears and thus make much better back up weapons then axes and more dangerous then clubs or daggers. A sign of wealth. Thus most magic weapons are swords, since such toys would be expensive and made even more so by being made magic and only the rich would be able to afford them. Look at literary works. Most sword swingers are people of wealth and fame. PCs think of themselves this way and therefore want to carry swords..... I guess.
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premmy
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
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Post by premmy on Feb 4, 2010 4:41:20 GMT -6
Swords make better phallic symbols.
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Post by delta on Feb 4, 2010 11:02:09 GMT -6
I think you've got to distinguish between in-formation battlefield warfare vs. man-to-man personal combat. The context, needs, and advantages are going to be quite different.
Look at the modern era. Most warfare is fought with assault rifles, yet most people carrying in the USA are using handguns. Even aside from the legal situation, the needs are very different.
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Post by ragnorakk on Feb 4, 2010 22:07:15 GMT -6
Swords make better phallic symbols. All a matter of personal preference there... I'd say that two handed weapons in general get 'the shaft' in character armament choices.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2010 2:12:54 GMT -6
Swords are a poor choice for phallic symbols. Now a spear or pike....THERE you have a symbol.
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capheind
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 236
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Post by capheind on Mar 1, 2010 12:34:47 GMT -6
Well in a dungeon it would seem that thrusting ranged weapons would be handy for keeping enemies at bay, you need room to swing and whip around that sword in a suitably dashing manner, all you need for a pike is room to turn it if you miss....
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Thorulfr
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
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Post by Thorulfr on Mar 23, 2010 19:40:44 GMT -6
Here's some YouTube video of sparring with Lucerne hammers - there are groups that are actively trying to make sense of the remaining fechtbücher. (Unfortunately, the local group must be college students, because they meet on Fridays in the late morning.) www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTVC25hYJaY&feature=channel
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jacar
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
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Post by jacar on Apr 12, 2010 13:10:07 GMT -6
The sword is garbage against really hard armor. It is not the weapon I'd take against someone wearing plate armor. I'd take a mace, hammer or pole-axe. Two-handers don't do enough in DnD to warrant giving up the shield.
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Thorulfr
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 264
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Post by Thorulfr on Apr 16, 2010 9:18:20 GMT -6
The sword is garbage against really hard armor. It is not the weapon I'd take against someone wearing plate armor. I'd take a mace, hammer or pole-axe. In general, I agree; my weapon of choice would be the pollaxe of a hammer, but some swords are more useful than you'd think. By the 14th century, blades were becoming longer and evenly tapered down to a sharp point (a very elongated triangle, rather than parallel sides with an ogive point used from the dark ages through the early middle ages.) Especially when used with 'half-sword' techniques, where the off hand gripped the middle of the blade and the sword was used to thrust at the joints between the armor, it could be quite effective. There was also the Tuck, which had a tapered square- or triangular-sectioned blade - imagine two-and-a-half foot spike with a sword hilt on it. Ouch. Again, sometimes used with the off hand gripping the middle of the blade. Basically, you had two options against a fully armored opponent: bash him with something really heavy (mace, hammer, pollaxe), or use something really sharp and pointy in both hands and aim for the joints.
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