Korgoth's awesome level system

[geoffrey]

Less than two months ago, Korgoth created a system for gaining levels that sticks in my mind it's so awesome. Here it is, copy-and-pasted:

OK. Inspired by EPT's rather brutal level system (when you go up, practically everything requires a percentile roll to see if it improves... including getting the coolest spells), I have created the most Old School level system EVAR:

At the conclusion of each adventure (Ref's discretion), each player rolls 1d20 for his character. On an adjusted roll of "20", the character gains a level. Modifiers:
+1 if any of Prime Req, INT or WIS is 15+;
+1 for *each* previous failed leveling roll at this level only.

Thus, Joav Rage, mediocre Fighting Man, is newly 3rd level. He completes an adventure: he will level again on a roll of "20". If he fails, the next time he completes an adventure he levels on a 19+, then 18+, etc.

Thus it's totally outside the control of both the players and the Ref. So everyone can feel free to do what they like during play!

(link to original comment: grognardia.blogspot.com/2009/10/arduins-xp-system.html )

[geoffrey]

Also in the comments in the above link, finarvyn had this to say about Korgoth's system:

Korgoth's suggestion is pretty neat becasue it makes it a die-roll. How about these modifications:
1. Have one party roll instead of one roll for each player. That way the whole group stays together in levels.
2. Rather than a d20, have them roll something like 2d6 over their level. That gives rapid advancement early on, then slows it down later.

[irdaranger]

I still like the incentive system that Gold = XP produces. Namely, trickery, theft and bedlam.

Plus, it gives you a concrete goal to achieve, rather than the more nebulous "finish an adventure." When is an adventure finished? When you've cleared every room? When you've given up? I know Korgoth says "Ref's discretion", but I'm thinking there's too much wiggle room there.

[geoffrey]

Personally, I'd define "end of adventure" as "end of game session". The only exception I'd make is if the PCs spent the whole session drinking in a tavern. As long as some honest-to-goodness adventuring occurred, I'd count the session as an adventure.

If my math is right, under this system it would take about 5 sessions on average to gain a level. If a DM thought that was too fast, he could simply have the players roll every other session, or after every 3 sessions, or after every 4, etc.

[Deleted]

I mentioned this thread to Korgoth when I saw him tonight. Perhaps he will weigh in with thoughts on this matter some time soon.

[korgoth]

I'm glad you like the concept, Geoffrey. And thanks for quoting the text, or else I would have had to try and remember what I actually said!

EPT's level system is interesting because most (though not all) of the benefits have to be diced for. People like it when they get a good roll, but they can also be a bit crestfallen when they gain a level and don't get anything out of it. Overall I'm positive about EPT's approach.

I really like Classic Traveller, and as we all know there is really no provision for character advancement in that game (well, just a little bit). My theory is that players are conditioned to do whatever gets XPs. So if XPs come from gold, they'll go for the gold and in fact squeeze the dungeon for every spare piece. If they come from killing stuff, the party will kill everything they see, down to the last su-marmoset and dire stoat.

This is true in all kinds of games. I remember playing the Deus Ex games, and in the first one you got XP for stuff which improved your abilities (your reticle, the noise you make, etc.). I always wanted to milk all the available XP, so would wander around levels looking for secret areas (bonus points) and clues that were already irrelevant. However in the second game, which had no XP system, I more or less played it straight.

So one approach (if you don't feel like rewarding loot and slay behavior, for example) would be to remove level advancement from any particular PC activity. But since we're kicking it Old School, we might as well make it a random roll! On the assumption that random rolls are fun.

[geoffrey]

Exactly.

I want the players to simply enjoy playing D&D. I don't want them to feel they have to do things solely to get experience points.

Your system, Korgoth, is great in that it allows the PCs to gain levels for doing nothing other than playing D&D.

[EdOWar]

If you want to encourage play without the randomness of a dice roll to determine level advancement, you could also use something like the free-form experience from Omega World.

Basically, you don't get XP for killing stuff or looting stuff, but for doing stuff. If the party sits in the tavern the whole time, they get 0 XP. If they do some weaksause adventuring they might get a few hundred XP. If they do something really epic, like fighting a Deathbot, they can get several thousand XP.

One nice thing is that the party still gets the XP even if they fail spectacularly.

[Mr. Darke]

I like this. In fact, I think I am going to use it from now on!

[jjarvis]

Nov 30, 2009 15:07:00 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

L
OK. Inspired by EPT's rather brutal level system (when you go up, practically everything requires a percentile roll to see if it improves... including getting the coolest spells), I have created the most Old School level system EVAR:

I'm a little confused here. Cool system indeed being brought up, but EPT does have automatic improvements by level: a professional skill each level, gradual improvements in fighting and saves , hit dice climb automatically (but you aren't guaranteed extra hp if you roll poorly). Bonus spells have to be diced for but most of the professional skills for priests and MUs are magical spells they do receive with no dice rolling. The chance for improving ability scores is rolled each level.

The original GW rules had a very subdued and minimal PC improvement system with experience that gave a random improvement per level with no guaranteed improvement in any factor.

[geoffrey]

I also like Korgoth's system for how lazy it lets everyone (both players and DM) be. No more converting all treasure to g.p. to determine x.p. No more keeping lists of monsters killed, and adding up their x.p. with the treasure x.p., and then dividing amongst the players (and henchmen and hirelings for an added complication), and the players adding the acquired x.p. to their current totals, and comparing to the level charts. Etc.

Of course all the above is easy math, but it is work that is made unnecessary by Korgoth's system.

[makofan]

I like the concept, but probably would not use it. The risk/reward "greed vs prudence" is too vital to me

[kesher]

This is absolutely how I'm going to do things from now on---I am so sick of counting gps and xps....

I think it'll actually work well for the once/month format of my current game.

[philotomy]

It's a nifty system if you're willing to put aside the "goal award" approach of XP for treasure and the idea that different classes advance at different rates (although I don't think that's true in EPT). I wouldn't use it for my main campaign, but I could see it working well in other situations. For example, I'd consider something like that if I were running a game where all the PCs were members of mercenary unit (i.e. all Fighting Men) on a series of missions, or something along those lines.