mordrene
Level 2 Seer
Trogdor the Burninator
Posts: 40
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Post by mordrene on Nov 30, 2009 13:31:51 GMT -6
Why does one need the avalon hill outdoor survival game to play odnd?
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Post by snorri on Nov 30, 2009 14:03:25 GMT -6
Outdoor Survival provided a map without too much details (and no names!), so it could be used easily as a setting. Dave Arneson actually did it in his Blackmoor campaign. It also provided the fisrt rules for the wilderness movements, dangers and encounters. Some of them have been reproduced, more or less, in tha later Expert set. You can find variations on the map here : odd74.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=adventures&action=display&thread=2202
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mordrene
Level 2 Seer
Trogdor the Burninator
Posts: 40
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Post by mordrene on Nov 30, 2009 14:53:48 GMT -6
thanks
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Post by howandwhy99 on Dec 14, 2009 20:14:05 GMT -6
Why does one need the avalon hill outdoor survival game to play odnd? It is used as a means of travel between rivers, roads, paths, and other borders in the wilderness dungeon. It also includes other essential rules detailed below. Think of it like digging through the walls in an underground dungeon. The path is never the only way to go. Once the players are a certain distance off a border/path, then bring out the OS board and have them make Direction Checks. (If they are trying to return to the path they just left and make the first check, you can skip the board). The overland territory's Terrain type determines the point at which the first check is made, this is based upon sight distance. It also determines the Base Speed for travel across the Ref's map. Base Overland Speed does not effect movement rules on the OS board, but does determine the hex size for movement on the Ref's map. Moving sufficiently off a path or border and not into a civilized (i.e. cultivated) overland area will always bring out the OS board. Direction checks are used very regularly when using the OS board, not just when the players ask as during the rest of the game. Tracking of Food, Water, and the Life Level Index will also move from background to foreground during OS board play. These rules are also in effect throughout an entire game. Place the PCs one hex outside of the Ref's overland map and have the players place the appropriate LLI marker according to their current condition in the middle of the board on an undefined hex. Have a player or players make Direction checks, track their group's health on a yellow Life Level Index Chart, and move the LLI markers across the board according to the rules for the appropriate scenario card kept behind the screen. Players in the same group on the board can discuss their movement beforehand, but once a marker is moved that is the direction traveled. Use the OS board until combat or a similar tactical level event occurs (in which case set the OS board aside) or until the players reach another border/path on the Ref's overland map. Ignore rules for trying to get off the edge of the OS board. The Ref is the one who tracks where and how the PCs actually move since knowing the true direction one is traveling in is often in question for the players. North, East, South, and West on the edges of the board are not in effect. When a border on the Ref's overland map is reached it is described to the players. They may ignore it and just keep wandering, sometimes into a different territory. If the overland territory is changed, change the base speed and tell the players. However, this will not affect movement on the OS board. If the players follow a found path/border, remove the OS board and continue regular play. If a group splits or there is more than one group, make sure to track each separately with a different LLI Chart and place new markers on the board each away from the others. NPC groups are not placed on the board in sight of the players, but a Ref will want them placed somewhere secretly on the board as well to determine effects on the NPCs movement on the Ref's map. This only comes into play during the "Pursuit" scenario. For standard wandering monster encounters, roll appropriately according to the territory based upon those charts. If two or more groups arrive on the same hex on the Ref's map at the same time, then run the standard encounter rules including sighting according to the overland Terrain type. Remember, markers do not need to be on the same hex on the OS board to meet. It is the Ref's map which shows their true positions. I like to use a plastic hex overlay for a hand drawn Ref's map in case of territory changes and to redraw the area, if it is altered. The OS board has multiple elements built in to either help or hinder those braving the wildernes: - Water areas for resupplying Water.
- Animal areas where game can be killed and Food resupplied (for those not Rangers).
- Trails from animal paths not accounted for on the Ref's map, but which aid in increasing speed in a particular direction.
- Houses can be used as abandoned dwellings to protect against the elements, hidden refuges like B2's mad hermit, or simply be a remarkable reference points for giving directions to others or for trailblazing.
- Additional Terrain rules beyond that of the overland territory. If the territory was a mountain range, each of the OS terrain effects alter the Base Movement for mountain travel.
The Ref uses the appropriate card from OS depending upon the situation. "Lost" is most common, but "Pursue" is good for overland chases. "Search" works for finding hidden places. "Rescue" is really "Search" combined with "Lost". "Survival" I don't use, but surviving is always in effect. I use different necessities rules as D&D has rules for water and food storage and use already. In OD&D, players already track Food & Water, so this isn't a big change. As mentioned before, rules for lack of Food & Water apply regardless of whether or not the OS board is used. The Life Level Index is an additional health track similar to Hit Points, but describes another aspect of health rather than the ability to take a hit. The two may or may not be tied together as determined by the Ref before play, but LL loss can eventually result in death even with full HP. EDIT: Fatigue rules from the combat system are tied to LLI, IIRC.
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Post by Finarvyn on Dec 17, 2009 22:18:40 GMT -6
Why does one need the avalon hill outdoor survival game to play odnd? In short, you don't need it. ;D I have run a few campaigns using the map. It's neat, but not particularly special. There is another thread here that has some nice copies of the map that you can download and print. At that point, you need the game even less.
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Post by snorri on Dec 18, 2009 3:17:42 GMT -6
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eris
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 161
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Post by eris on Dec 22, 2009 13:50:44 GMT -6
Why does one need the avalon hill outdoor survival game to play odnd? In short, you don't need it. ;D I have run a few campaigns using the map. It's neat, but not particularly special. There is another thread here that has some nice copies of the map that you can download and print. At that point, you need the game even less. As Finarvyn said, you don't need it, but... Back in the mid 70's we didn't have access to the game materials of today. We had the 3 little books, a few dice, graph paper, *maybe* a pad of hexpaper we bought mail order from AH or SPI and pencils/pens/crayons/markers...and that was about it. AH's Outdoor Survival game had a nice big map with interesting details, but no real labels. It was perfect for us to use in a way different from what AH intended. Back then, I used it, I also used other AH wargame boards in the same way (but you had to ignore the labels or mark up your boards..."that town isn't Stalingrad, and this isn't *really* the eastern front, it's...um...Argon and this area is the Kingdom of..."). It was only later that we started to get the materials we needed to create our own maps of that size. I bought 22x28 inch blank hex sheets from AH. Some of them went to wargame scenarios I created, some to "wilderness maps for D&D" ("The Great Southeast" is on one, the continent of "Calamet" is on another), and some went to create battle maps (paste the black hex maps to mounting board's for wargames..also bought from AH...and cover with clear plastic shelf liner). I still use those battleboards, in hex and square, in FTF games 30 years after making them. I only have 2 blank sheets left, rolled up in their cardboard tubes. I can't bring myself to use them because I can't find replacements. I'd love to be able to buy some more of those big paper hex sheets. Does anyone know if they are being made and sold these days?
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Post by snorri on Dec 22, 2009 14:50:10 GMT -6
Stalingrad could be a nice setting for a post-apo megadungeon...
Any pics of your old maps? It would be a pleasure to see them.
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eris
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 161
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Post by eris on Dec 22, 2009 15:41:18 GMT -6
Stalingrad could be a nice setting for a post-apo megadungeon... Any pics of your old maps? It would be a pleasure to see them. Nope, no pictures I could post. I vaguely remember putting the game material for one of them away in a box, and I think it's in the bedroom closet. So, I might be able to dig that out, but I'm not sure I could take a picture of the big map...I'm not sure what condition it would be in anyway, it's been 20 years or more since I last saw it. I'm afraid the rest have "gone away" over time and distance traveled. Heck, I've got several old AH games (including OS) stored away somewhere...them I'd never sell or throw away...but I'm not sure where I've hidden them from myself. They are probably in the storage room along with my 40 years of Analog Magazine. OTOH, I know exactly where my White Box (D&D) and Black Box (Traveller) are. I just looked up at them right now. Both are in big ziplock bags sitting on the bookshelf to the left of my computer. They have to stay out because I still consult them from time to time...and because I want to be able to just "lay my hands on them." Just physically picking up the box, opening it and taking out one of the lovingly preserved books is a thrill. Traveller more than D&D, I'll admit, because I've always like SF more than fantasy.
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jjarvis
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 278
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Post by jjarvis on Dec 25, 2009 21:57:34 GMT -6
Back in the mid 70's we didn't have access to the game materials of today. We had the 3 little books, a few dice, graph paper, *maybe* a pad of hexpaper we bought mail order from AH or SPI and pencils/pens/crayons/markers...and that was about it. AH's Outdoor Survival game had a nice big map with interesting details, but no real labels. It was perfect for us to use in a way different from what AH intended. Back then, I used it, I also used other AH wargame boards in the same way ... I myself made use of the Starship Troopers boards and Gettysburg as well. The Star ship trooper map got used a fair amount because it had a built in method for really big dungeons by adapting the pad of hex-maps it had for arachnid tunnels.
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Post by howandwhy99 on Mar 30, 2010 22:14:06 GMT -6
At GaryCon Tavis mentioned to me about this thread and I though I would bump it in case he (or anyone else) wanted to ask questions about what I posted before. So... here's your chance. I'll check back periodically and respond. Of course, it's only one method and not "the one way" to use overland travel, but it is one I have been engaging in and would like to use in games I run. It ties in to a couple of articles I have been putzing around on for Fight On, which, admittedly, are confusing me the longer I try and conceive exactly what I want. The scope of the articles are larger than the above, but strategic level travel does enter into them pretty highly. Hopefully, if I ever get all the concepts worked out and written in a clear fashion, I will submit them for publication. As it is life has taken over my time, so I can't put a date on any that, but I'll keep trying.
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Post by castiglione on Mar 31, 2010 9:23:37 GMT -6
I believe a big chunk of the sales for Outdoor Survival were from OD&D players. I've never actually played the actual game itself but from what I've read of it, it was pretty dry and boring.
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Post by Lord Kilgore on Mar 31, 2010 13:26:02 GMT -6
I believe a big chunk of the sales for Outdoor Survival were from OD&D players. I've never actually played the actual game itself but from what I've read of it, it was pretty dry and boring. It was fairly dry and boring. First two plays were okay. After that nothing good to say. Unfortunately, I ditched it in the mid-80s.
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Post by coffee on Mar 31, 2010 13:42:33 GMT -6
It was a challenge, actually. Jim Dunnigan, founder of SPI, claimed that he could design a game on any subject. Avalon Hill's Tom Shaw said, "Okay, do a game on surviving in the wilderness."
(Note that Dunnigan didn't say he could design a fun game on any subject...)
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Post by Lord Kilgore on Apr 1, 2010 6:36:27 GMT -6
It was a challenge, actually. Jim Dunnigan, founder of SPI, claimed that he could design a game on any subject. Avalon Hill's Tom Shaw said, "Okay, do a game on surviving in the wilderness." (Note that Dunnigan didn't say he could design a fun game on any subject...) Oh, definitely a challenge. I think we died more than we made it. But after the first few plays it was very very repetitive as I recall. Maybe fairly quasi-realistic, but not really an enjoyable game.
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Post by castiglione on Apr 1, 2010 8:58:52 GMT -6
It was a challenge, actually. Jim Dunnigan, founder of SPI, claimed that he could design a game on any subject. Avalon Hill's Tom Shaw said, "Okay, do a game on surviving in the wilderness." (Note that Dunnigan didn't say he could design a fun game on any subject...) Ahhh...the hubris of game designers. I believe there's a Richard H. Berg design that was based on Imperial Japan's WWII incendiary balloon bomb campaign against the USA that was the result of such a challenge.
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