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Post by snorri on Nov 28, 2009 18:33:13 GMT -6
Christmas holidays 1970 First Blackmoor Session, with Chainmail rules. Wandering Monsters are allready there: “We could see Dave rolling before he would announce an encounter.” (GS/DB) Beginning of 1971 “Using Chainmail rules on the first adventure, when you got hit the first time you were dead. We didn’t like that much, so the next time we played we had hit points. Within a month Dave introduced armor classes.” (GS/DB) May 1971 First article about Blackmoor (GS/DB) Spring of 1972 Abilities are used in Blackmoor. (GS/DB) In the fall of 1972 “Dave Arneson gave me some of his notes and let me referee a couple of times when he was busy with other things” (GS/DB) “During the Fall of 1972 (…) shortly after Dave Arneson had introduced Blackmoor to Gary Gygax and the group in Lake Geneva, leading to the creation of Greyhawk. (OB) 1 November 1973 OD&D forward by Gary Gygax (GS/DB) 1973-1974 “I must have DMed more often than I remember from what Bob Meyer has told me about the days when we were roommates in 1973 & 1974” (GS/DB) 1974 (after release of OD&D) “The individual levels and things like that were new, but the way we played we didn’t really notice the difference. Attributes were different, we had used two d6’s to get a number from 1 to 10, where we changed to three d6’s and a range from 3 to 18, but most were just changes in mechanics...” (GS/DB) 1974-1976 At some point (probably in 1975 give or take a year) Uther granted many of his loyal servants their own fiefs. Since the original Blackmoor area was already occupied, the new fiefs were created in the south. An area we called "province one". Dave simply placed the map from Avalon Hill's "Outdoor Survival" game next to the Blackmoor map and showed us which hex had our new fief in it. (OB) Between 1971 and 1975 “Temple of the Frog” and “Valley of the Ancients” adventure (GS/DB) (GS/DB) : Greg Svenson Q&A with David Bowman shamsgrog.blogspot.com/2009_05_01_archive.html(OB) : Greg Svenson on Blackmoor MMRPG mmrpg.zeitgeistgames.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=594To be confronted to other sources... Some first impressions: 1) Greg Svenson had a limited access to the whole system, in late 1972. Probably he did use this system in 1973-74, bt Dave could have switched to the % layer during this time. It would fit our feeling that there's a 2d6 layer ("improved Chainmail") under the % one - and if so, we got a clue for the datation of these. 2) Dave adapted his game to the published version of D&D in early 1974 - at least partially (maybe the notes on differences in Blackmoor game from FFC reflect this). |
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Post by harami2000 on Nov 28, 2009 19:50:05 GMT -6
Thanks for getting that all down to work from/around.  Chainmail wasn't in use at the start since it wasn't published then; nor is there any indication of the use of LGTSA rules (developing from July 1970 onwards), afaik, prior to that. Where was that first article on Blackmoor published, out of interest? [edit: ah... "first documented Blackmoor game was on May 21, 1971"; not first article. OK... ] Point of interest, only part covered; where/when/was there anything approaching the first proper /world/map for Blackmoor, as opposed to regional only/above-and-beyond RL based? Greyhawk wasn't really at /that/ stage until after mid-1976 at least, according to EGG, and the "probably in 1975 give or take a year" quote for expansion does rather fit that bill, too, for Blackmoor - but I'd thought the scope had gone far wider prior to that date with John Snider, for example, including Blackmoor in the "universe" of their SFRPG (pre-D&D timescale). Having stuck my neck out before to propose that Kalibruhn might actually have been the first gaming /world/ designed as such, I'm still not seeing anything to counter that. |
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Post by aldarron on Nov 28, 2009 22:27:51 GMT -6
This thread odd74.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=blackmoor&action=display&thread=683 has a few details to add and stands as another reference point for most of the dates. Note especially these to quotes from Mr. Svenson: "Because you died when you were hit in Chainmail, we were using damage dice, hit dice and armor classes within about a month of our starting to play Blackmoor (winter of 1970-71)." "Dave Arneson tells me I was the third DM, after himself and Gary. I ran a adventure for Bill Heaton (the Blue Rider) and Mel Johnson (Mello) sometime during the fall of 1972 (nobody remembers exactly when) using Dave's notes. I built a city, called Tonisborg, complete with a dungeon and a network of catacombs, during 1973 and ran many adventures there and all around the Blackmoor area in 1973 and 1974 using the play test rules for the original three little books and then the published books." |
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Post by harami2000 on Nov 28, 2009 22:49:47 GMT -6
Regardless of recollection, Chainmail (named as such) wasn't in print then; March(?)/April 1971 for that, give-or-take, from the adverts but would need to cross-check again against reviews for a backstop date of actual publication.
Given that others' recollections have been +/- 1 year or even +/- 2 years or more, Greg does /relatively/ well from what I've read here and elsewhere where chronological synchronisms are available.
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Post by Finarvyn on Nov 28, 2009 22:52:34 GMT -6
A nice chronology. Well researched and well organized! :-D
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Post by aldarron on Dec 1, 2009 9:33:54 GMT -6
Regardless of recollection, Chainmail (named as such) wasn't in print then; March(?)/April 1971 for that, give-or-take, from the adverts but would need to cross-check again against reviews for a backstop date of actual publication. Given that others' recollections have been +/- 1 year or even +/- 2 years or more, Greg does /relatively/ well from what I've read here and elsewhere where chronological synchronisms are available. Reconsidering the chronology Mr. Svenson, Arneson and others have stated directly or otherwise alluded that Blackmoor began over Christmas break 1970/71. This may be a case of misremembering the year. Everyone agrees that Blackmoor began with the Chainmail rules – the fantasy rules in particular. According to the Aceum, the initial publication of the rules that became known as Chainmail, in the Castle and Crusades society newsletter occurred in 1970, but did not include the Fantasy Supplement rules. As David pointed out, these were not published until the summer of 1971. Hmmm. In all the interviews with Arneson that I’ve seen (or heard), exact times are not specified, but he definetly gives the impression that it was not long, a matter of months (not a year and a half), before he introduced the game to Gygax, reported by Gygax and others to have occurred in fall of 1972. If the creation of Blackmoor was in fact December of 1971, not 1970, it is far more consistent with this picture (about 9 months till Gygax learns of it), and fits the publication date of Chainmail. The Arneson interview in Pegasus #1 from Apr-May1981 seems to back this up too. : “Back in 1972 I started doing dungeon explorations with the local gamers, building up a set of rules as we went along. I kept track of my rule decisions in a big black notebook as we went along so I didn’t contradict myself too often. We were in correspondence with the group from Lake Geneva through the Napoleonic Campaigns at that time, so we mentioned that we were doing fantasy stuff on the alternate weekends and they became very interested in it. After I made several trips down there so they could go down in my dungeon, they became excited about it. At that time, they had a lot more spare time than I did and they had a lot of ideas, so they came up with their own version of the rules. They sent theirs to us and we fooled around with them for a while.” P5. |
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Post by harami2000 on Dec 1, 2009 13:41:51 GMT -6
Reconsidering the chronology Mr. Svenson, Arneson and others have stated directly or otherwise alluded that Blackmoor began over Christmas break 1970/71. This may be a case of misremembering the year. Everyone agrees that Blackmoor began with the Chainmail rules – the fantasy rules in particular. According to the Aceum, the initial publication of the rules that became known as Chainmail, in the Castle and Crusades society newsletter occurred in 1970, but did not include the Fantasy Supplement rules. As David pointed out, these were not published until the summer of 1971. Hmmm. In all the interviews with Arneson that I’ve seen (or heard), exact times are not specified, but he definetly gives the impression that it was not long, a matter of months (not a year and a half), before he introduced the game to Gygax, reported by Gygax and others to have occurred in fall of 1972. If the creation of Blackmoor was in fact December of 1971, not 1970, it is far more consistent with this picture (about 9 months till Gygax learns of it), and fits the publication date of Chainmail. A sensible line of enquiry and I'd run that apparent "long lead" question around my mind a good few years back and don't think at that stage I could pin down sufficient primary evidence to definitively prove the matter either way; or even the stated 1972 start date for D&D (in Lake Geneva). There are a few old posts over on the Acaeum relating to this, IIRC. The lead in from Wesley and the Domesday Book does, however, fit rather better with a winter 1970/71 start for Blackmoor and if Greg could dig out the precise context for the "first documented Blackmoor game being on May 21, 1971", that would be useful IMO. aside: 1st edition Chainmail does contain the Fantasy Supplement rules contrary to Schick's assertion and hundreds of other derivative sources resulting from his book. My understanding that Arneson & co. picked up Chainmail when it was published and decided there wasn't a great deal more of use in that, generally laying it aside, does not preclude his claim (ironically in Heroic Worlds) regarding its influence being "in the development of the Original D&D rules was in the Combat Matrix only" since that particular aspect has its origins in Domesday Book #7 (September 1970) as far as I can see (and perhaps reworking from that irregular 2d6, roll under format therein after the first few initial combat simulation attempts with rock, paper, and scissors, etc.). I don't know about Dave Arneson's copy of Chainmail but John Snider's certainly doesn't look as if it was used much (or at all) during play - and I understand that was "on the table" during the original Blackmoor campaign - whereas his (early) 1st edition D&D books have multiple annotations, extra monsters written in, beverage and ink stains, etc. Would also be interesting to see if that can indeed be made to fit the "abandoned the chainmail combat system after the first three games in 1971" quote, too, since that's perhaps difficult to reconcile with going back(?) to 2d6, roll under and/or, again, a potentially problematic year being quoted.  Apologies in advance for any obvious oversights: a bit of a dash just now and more than slightly under the weather.  Cheers, David. |
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Post by snorri on Dec 1, 2009 16:47:32 GMT -6
A lot of interesting ideas there! I'll correct the chronology as soon as possible. her what I did today, having a long travel by train (and without seeing the last posts here). It's an attempt to understand the inner chronology of the FFC. I got more ideas I'll post in the few next days, and some interssting little discoveries. I hope my notes are not too cryptic, but it should help the discussion. My pages numbers refers to the 1980 pagination. 1971 Blackmoor Castle level 7+ (p. 33-35) 1971-1973 Richard Snider’s addition – possibly [if so, he may have provided the dragons rule first, but it seems Dave adapted it to the new rules in 1977. - The ‘differences in creatures” (p. 57) and the “loch Gloomen” (p. 59) are grounded in Chainmail and can’t be post-1974 – they could be older. The Dragon’s table (p. 61), with dragons having 4d6 hits, seems even older. Notes like “Swords 7+4 should be studied carefully, as well as the subduing dragons p. 61). Orcs and other monsters descriptions (p. 62-63) 1972Use of the Outdoor survival map (p. 23). Probable inclusion of the OS rules. - Encounter matrix (use of d20, but on the Judge side only, so it seems possible ; apart the various human types (bandits, nomads, pirates), it fits perfectly the Chainmail list of creatures (at least the 3d version one – to be verified). - First evasion table (to be compared with the D&D one) - Map movement (to compare with OS) Maybe the p. 24 price list, to be studied more carefully 1973 Blackmoor, the campaign (tables, including prices) - 1974+ (ie, after publication of D&D) Blackmoor, the campaign : Internal investments subsection could have been modified (mention of a d4 and of silver pieces, p. 9) ; Hunting, Armories and Animal Breeding quotes D&D (p. 10) ; Farming (mention of a d4, p. 10) – probably the whole economical section. The Land and sea trade subsection provide no evidence about their datatation. Blackmoor, the campaign : Price list (p. 11), should be compared to the earlier one – the price for slaves no vary according to their strength (males) or charisma (females). Magic sword matrix [use of funky dices – to be discussed, as it’s possible the table of swords, which link to the code numbers in the Blackmoor castle, could be more ancient than the tables]. Gypsy sayings and chances cards (unless some cards have been modified o fit with funky dices. Tarns appears apparently end in 1972). 1975+ use of supplements Blackmoor, the campaign: Religion, mentions paladins, clerics and patriarchs. Blackmoor Castle levels 1-6 (p. 28 and 30-32) [but its keep tracks of an earlier material, as shows the wizards in armor and strange AC pattern]. Special interest (at least the table. The full text, with its criticism of D&D experience system, is at least post-1974. 1976 Patterns of aera (p. 27), with druids and assassin. 1977 Bob Bledsaw’s Forward Dave Arneson’s Introduction Blackmoor, the campaign (introduction and editing notes) Campaign map notes (with references about dungeon-delving in 1975-1977) Blackmoor’s More infamous Characters (editing notes and final redaction – but the material seems coming from an older material) Blackmoor, facts about Blackmoor (maybe from earlier notes, but mostly remembering and anecdotes) Blackmoor town map (anecdotes) Original Blackmoor system (p. 50), but clearly refers to what was practiced. Interesting note about Constitution. How to become a bad guy? [but it explain earlier procedures, without date]. Maybe the “proto-rules” manuscript, which includes part of FFC which seems to have been written as a rule set. Includes: Outdoor of Blackmoor (p. 25) ; Migration (p. 25); Drawing you own map (p. 26) [this part seems to use funky dices, as 1-4 and 1-8 scales appears, but this may be later chances – it seems to have been mainly wrote with ‘percentile dice’ and d6] to be discussed  |
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Post by aldarron on Dec 13, 2009 20:44:13 GMT -6
Looking for something else, naturally, I stumbled on two bits of information that may confuse the picture somewhat but at least provide some more clues to chase down for the chronology. First is this quote from www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgamedesigner/574/david-r-megarry : (note they year) "David R. Megarry originally invented the classic TSR game Dungeon! in 1971. Remarkably, the board game is arguably an ancestor of Dungeons and Dragons, although he got his idea from Dungeons and Dragons co-creator Dave Arneson Blackmoor adventure map. His game idea was rejected by all of the established game publishers including Milton Bradley, Parker Brothers, Avalon Hill, and SPI until TSR bought it from him for 7.5% of their company stock after Dungeons and Dragons had already hit the market." Second is this quote from David Wesely (Col Wesely, creator of Braunstien) on Dave Arnesons obituary page at this website scifiwire.com/2009/04/dungeons-dragons-dave-arn.php"I want to thank all of you for the kind words about my good friend Dave Arneson. Having read a lot of web comments in the last few days, I keep seeing one thing that bothers me, so I'm going to try to correct it: D&D was not descended from Chainmail, though a lot of the obit writers think it was. The sequence is: 1) After a few years of running multiplayer historical role playing campaigns, Dave starts up Blackmoor his medieval, fantasy RPG in MAY 1971. 2) When his players complain that the hand-to-hand combat rules he is using are poor, he grabs a copy of Chainmail - which has no fantasy suppliment at that time 3) At Gencon, in AUG 1971, he shows Blackmoor to Gary. Gary starts up Greyhawk and they start exchanging ideas on how to improve the campaigns. 4) In 1972 Gary adds the Fantasy suppliment to Chainmail, making it a lot more useful in the two campaigns. 5) David R. Megarry, a player in Blackmoor, invents the boardgame DUNGEON. He cannot find a publisher for it, but plays it with Arneson, who he credits for inspiration. At the same time, Arneson credits Megarry for having identified the unique possibilities in the dungeon crawl as a game mechanism that he had not. The Dungeon becomes the dominant place to play the game. 6) Arneson and Gygax create the D&D rules and look for a publisher 7) Gygax risks everything he owns to start G&K Enterprises, with his friend Don Kaye. G&K products are called Tactical Studies Rules, and include a new game - D&D 8) Don dies, and G&K becomes TSR, Inc. 9) TSR publishes Greyhawk and Blackmoor as campaign supplimetnts to D&D 10) TSR publishes DUNGEON A lot of people get confused because the publication dates of these D&D ancestors after the date for D&D; but those are just the order they were published in, not the order they were invented in. I will be at the viewing (on the 20th) and the funeral (on the 21st) and I hope to see all of you there. When I visited Dave in the hospital the Saturday night before he died, he said he wanted us to all have a good time seeing him off. So folks, if you can get here, come on up, be polite, say good bye, and be happy. -Dave Wesely" What really jumps out at me here is that Wesely is saying that Gygax was inspired to creat the Fantasy supplement after exposure to Arnesons Blackmoor. Huh. We really need to get our chronolgy firmed up. |
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Post by harami2000 on Dec 13, 2009 22:55:35 GMT -6
What really jumps out at me here is that Wesley is saying that Gygax was inspired to creat the Fantasy supplement after exposure to Arnesons Blackmoor. Unfortunately Wesley's chronology is undermined by repeating the factual error stating that the Fantasy Supplement was not in 1e Chainmail. The May 1971 date tallying with the "first documented Blackmoor game" rather than the earlier winter 1970/71 is an interesting coincidence, though. |
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Post by havard on Dec 14, 2009 7:05:46 GMT -6
Nice chronologies!
How do these compare to the in game timeline? Which year did Robilar and Mordenkeinen journey to the City of the Gods?
Havard
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Post by snorri on Dec 18, 2009 4:22:24 GMT -6
A question to try to solev the chronological problem of the first Blackmoor. As far as I understand, Dave Arneson intended to play a "middle-age Braunstein" in the C&C society setting. The name of Blackmoor, associating a color and a lanscape, like the Brown-Stein (Braunstein), could even be a reference about that (even if it gives a Shakespearian mood). So, couldn't he have developped the basis of his Braunstein / Blackmoor with the DB7, then added the fantasy aspects a few months later, when he get the 1st Chainmail print? It would solve the chornological gap. Dave, any advice on that hypothesis?
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Post by aldarron on Dec 18, 2009 9:00:49 GMT -6
A question to try to solev the chronological problem of the first Blackmoor. As far as I understand, Dave Arneson intended to play a "middle-age Braunstein" in the C&C society setting. The name of Blackmoor, associating a color and a lanscape, like the Brown-Stein (Braunstein), could even be a reference about that (even if it gives a Shakespearian mood). So, couldn't he have developped the basis of his Braunstein / Blackmoor with the DB7, then added the fantasy aspects a few months later, when he get the 1st Chainmail print? It would solve the chornological gap. Dave, any advice on that hypothesis? Just seconding you Snorri as I'm wondering much the same. Sniders statement about a period of "experimentation" fits a "slow start" from 1970. It's also interesting that Dave talks about using a German model of a Sicilian castle to represent the Castle of Blackmoor. Although Arneson has said the players thought they were doing a Napoleonic battle in a Polish castle they "soon learned" that they would be going into a dungeon. Its possible that the castle was a more than a prop for the dungeon those first few games, and the monsters just a couple vilans inspired from the Horror movies he'd watched. If the first Blackmoor games was a classic dungeon crawl with Chainmail monsters, the castle wouldn't have much use, but if it was a kind of miniatures game with individual heroes and vilans, ala Braunstein, maybe the castle played a larger role in first battles/plots. Arneson does say in the FFC they very quickly moved beyond the dungeon, into the surrounding countryside. Edit: I mistakenly remembered Dave Wesely mentioning this, but it was actually Mike Mornard. Here is the exact quote. "Just before I came along to the bunch (1971) there was a medieval miniatures battle up in Minneapolis. By his own words, Dave Arneson said he didn't like medieval miniatures, so he threw in Godzilla as a dragon. So, everybody said, "Hey, let's do dragon rules." And since Tolkien was enjoying his first mass market popularity, everybody figured, "Hey, let's do orcs and goblins and elves and Ents and Balrogs and, and, and..." |
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Post by tavis on Dec 18, 2009 14:15:46 GMT -6
Dave Wesely should be easy to reach for queries - he's posted at the Acaeum and at the Ars Ludi blog. I had the pleasure of meeting him at Gen Con two years ago & attending the lecture he gave about Braunstein; although I don't remember the details enough to help, I can say for sure that he's full of fascinating information and happy to talk about it. |
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Post by aldarron on Dec 18, 2009 22:04:06 GMT -6
The material in FO#2 Gives us some more clues regarding chronology and the Chainmail ruleset.
Svenson tells us
“Other members of the group had played the game before, but always doing adventures around the town of Blackmoor.”
In the Arneson interview we have:
FO! Greg Svenson mentions in his account of the first dungeon adventure (just above – Ig) that you had been running games in and around the town of Blackmoor before that historic game. Do you have any recollection of those early wargame-like dungeon scenarios?
DA Pretty straightforward in those days. Kill the monsters, steal the gold. And some convoluted, impossible story line. Hey, we were all learning.
Arneson and the players often remember that there were monsters in Chainmail that made their way into Blackmoor. They also remember that they started off with the Chainmail combat rules and the Chainmail monsters. Memories being what they are, its not impossible that the remembering of when monsters from Chainamail entered the game is being confused with when the Chainmail combat rules were used. Indeed it would have to be the case in xmas 1970 since the fantasy supplement had not been published – unless Arneson had some kind of advance copy that included the Fantasy Supplement, but if he did its curious that Arneson never mentioned it. Fortunately we have a very detailed record of the first Blackmoor dungeon adventure ever from Mr Svenson – the Great Svenny. Svenny encounters only 4 “monsters”
a black blob “like the thing in the classic Japanese horror movie The Blob from the 1950’s”
a beautiful woman who seduces, turns into a snake and then kills.
an evil wizard
a balrog
Note that the first two (50% of those encountered) are definitely not Chainmail monsters. I think the “evil wizard” was a players character Arneson took over and the balrog could have easily been plucked straight out of Tolkien. In other words, Svensons encounters seem very un fantasy supplement in nature and lend credence to the earlier, xmas 1970 date.
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Post by badger2305 on Jan 2, 2010 13:51:28 GMT -6
Just to be clear - the May 21st, 1971 date is based on a reference in Dave's own clubzine, The Corner of the Table. It noted that there would be a fantasy game called "Black Moor" happening on that date (roughly a week or so after the publication of the 'zine). I believe Dave Wesely and Ross Maker have the rest of the COTT's that can be referenced, though I recall Dave Arneson telling me there wasn't much of a reference for further Blackmoor adventures for a couple of months after that.
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Post by harami2000 on Jan 2, 2010 16:09:01 GMT -6
Ah... rabbit out of the hat. Thank you, indeed, Victor! (Now, if I can only recall the EPT thread from way back where I was hoping you might be able to do the same!). Just to be clear - the May 21st, 1971 date is based on a reference in Dave's own clubzine, The Corner of the Table. Is that still on-hand or otherwise available for confirmation and/or any further "fair use" mining? A reference for use on Wikipedia would also be much appreciated, if possible. It noted that there would be a fantasy game called "Black Moor" happening on that date (roughly a week or so after the publication of the 'zine). I believe Dave Wesely and Ross Maker have the rest of the COTT's that can be referenced, though I recall Dave Arneson telling me there wasn't much of a reference for further Blackmoor adventures for a couple of months after that. There's that rabbit. Wesely's chronology was making better sense up to that May 1971 point but weren't appearing to reconcile fully with later dates and for the bigger picture which might be expected as expected since wasn't directly involved as a "D&D" man. None of which necessarily dictates the mechanics Arneson was using up to that point (Wesley's 1970 Strategos-N revisions and/or an extension of the 2d6 roll-under DB tables, etc.), or indeed afterwards, although there's still that "players complain[ing] that the hand-to-hand combat rules he is using are poor, he grabs a copy of Chainmail" to consider one way or another. Cheers, David. |
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Post by aldarron on May 16, 2010 9:27:26 GMT -6
So far the timeline picture coming together from Wesely, Svenson, J. Snider, Stephen Rochford (on ToTF) and the printed bits we know of support the following dates
1967(Or early1968) to 1970 - Dave Wesely creates and develops Braunstein RPG
July 1970 – “Troop Type” Chainmail rules published
Oct 1970 – Wesely leaves for active Duty Leaving Dave Arneson to run any Braunstein games.
December 1970 (Christmas holiday) – Arneson creates medieval fantasy Braunstein called Blackmoor.
Combat probably loosely based on Troop Type system. Tolkienesque and invented monsters. Magic component based and organized into Animal, Vegetable and Mineral categories. Hit points and combat saving throw invented to help character survival. Armor Class and Hit dice a likely feature and possibly some kind of level progression or promotion. The game is very popular and frequent, but Napoleonics player Gregg Scott objects and insults Blackmoor players. Arneson immortalizes him as the Egg of Coot.
March 1971 – CHAINMAIL published. Arneson incoporates most of the fantasy content and characteristics of wizards, hero, etc. into the Blackmoor game. Three levels defined as Flunky, Hero, superhero. Armor Class probably assigned 1-8 types copied from CHAINMAIL Man to Man table. Arneson flirts with CHAINMAIL Fantasy Table combat but decides to rework his own combat system, probably creating a HD vs. HD table with an AC saving throw.
1973 or early 1974 – Stephen Rocheford creates Saint Stephen (a space alien in Blackmoor) prompting Arneson to create Temple of the Frog and introduce Star Trek/scifi technologies to Blackmoor.
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Post by havard on May 16, 2010 15:40:59 GMT -6
So far the timeline picture coming together from Wesely, Svenson, J. Snider, Stephen Rochford (on ToTF) and the printed bits we know of support the following dates Cool summary Dan! Maybe you could also get some dates out of Jeff Berry over at the Comeback Inn to when Arneson's gaming with MAR Barker started? Frog Men and sci fi elements also seem to stem from the exchange of ideas between the Professor and Arneson... Havard |
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Post by havard on Jul 21, 2010 7:31:53 GMT -6
Based on the items from Dan above, I have added some more things to the list:
1967(Or early1968) to 1970 - Dave Wesely creates and develops Braunstein RPG
July 1970 – “Troop Type” Chainmail rules published
Oct 1970 – Wesely leaves for active Duty Leaving Dave Arneson to run any Braunstein games.
December 1970 (Christmas holiday) – Arneson creates medieval fantasy Braunstein called Blackmoor.
Combat probably loosely based on Troop Type system. Tolkienesque and invented monsters. Magic component based and organized into Animal, Vegetable and Mineral categories. Hit points and combat saving throw invented to help character survival. Armor Class and Hit dice a likely feature and possibly some kind of level progression or promotion. The game is very popular and frequent, but Napoleonics player Gregg Scott objects and insults Blackmoor players. Arneson immortalizes him as the Egg of Coot.
1970-1971: Adventures in the Blackmoor Dungeon.
March 1971 – CHAINMAIL published. Arneson incoporates most of the fantasy content and characteristics of wizards, hero, etc. into the Blackmoor game. Three levels defined as Flunky, Hero, superhero. Armor Class probably assigned 1-8 types copied from CHAINMAIL Man to Man table. Arneson flirts with CHAINMAIL Fantasy Table combat but decides to rework his own combat system, probably creating a HD vs. HD table with an AC saving throw.
1972 (The Second Year): Campaign Expands. Coot Invasions. Battle of Glendover
November 1972: Dave Arneson and Dave Megarry take Blackmoor to Lake Geneva with Arneson running a game for Gary Gygax, Rob Kuntz, and Terry Kuntz. They explore the Blackmoor Dungeon and the Outdoors. Megarry assumes the role of leading PC as he is the most familiar with the setting.
1973(The Third Year): Adventures in Lake Gloomy. (FFC)
1974(“More Recent events”): Peasant Revolt, Afridhi invasions (Nomads of Ten), Valley of the Ancients. (FFC)
1974 or early 1975 – Stephen Rocheford creates Saint Stephen (a space alien in Blackmoor) prompting Arneson to create Temple of the Frog and introduce Star Trek/scifi technologies to Blackmoor. (Rocheford quote)
1975: Experimentation: Great Svenny vs. Nazis and WWII Japanese. Sniders bring back Japanese Tank to Zvenzen’s Freehold. (Imagine Magazine)
1976: “New group”. Back to Blackmoor Dungeon. (FFC)
1976: Rob Kuntz and Gary Gygax journey to the City of the Gods. (OJ#6)
-Havard
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Post by aldarron on Jul 21, 2010 9:48:29 GMT -6
Nice Havard. I'd also add this bit Rob mentioned on the Geneva Group thread.
November 1972: Dave Arneson and Dave Megarry take Blackmoor to Lake Geneva with Arneson running a game for Gary Gygax, Rob Kuntz, and one other player.
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Post by havard on Jul 21, 2010 10:13:20 GMT -6
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Post by snorri on Jul 21, 2010 15:34:05 GMT -6
1972 (...) - First evasion table (to be compared with the D&D one) Long time ago, but as the thread is back, I checked that point. Not too pmuch to says, but it seems clear that FFC table is quite archaic in appearence, and easier to use than the U&WA one. What's curious is Dave's table in FFC - which is an 'avoiding an encounter' rather than a 'evasion' table, provide only numbers for one to five people trying to avoid an outdoor encounter, while U&WA goes to 25 - a party with a good bunch of henchmen, allready a small warband. Also, Dave's version is on 1d6, while U&WA use percentile dices. It looks highly Gygaxian |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2017 16:33:16 GMT -6
Is it possible at this time to update the chronology that is presented above?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2017 6:57:21 GMT -6
Is it possible at this time to update the chronology that is presented above? I realized that I did not call anyone's attention to this - so: aldarron and increment and @secretsofblackmoor and waysoftheearth and of course snorri the OP! I hope I did not leave anyone out, if I did I apologize, this was off the top of my head. |
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Post by aldarron on Jun 27, 2017 8:05:21 GMT -6
Well... feel free. It does need an update but aside from a few simple corrections to the above, it will take a fair amount of work/time to do properly. I'd no longer hold to Blackmoor appearing over the Xmas break in 1970 - that was a reference to Sveneson first game which should be re-dated to 1971 Xmas. Blackmoor as a location seems to first appear in the late spring of 1971. |
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Post by Cedgewick on Jun 27, 2017 8:19:35 GMT -6
I'd no longer hold to Blackmoor appearing over the Xmas break in 1970 - that was a reference to Sveneson first game which should be re-dated to 1971 Xmas. Is this coming from Greg? Because I've seen two pieces of evidence now that suggest he could in fact be right |
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Post by aldarron on Jun 27, 2017 20:04:17 GMT -6
I'd no longer hold to Blackmoor appearing over the Xmas break in 1970 - that was a reference to Sveneson first game which should be re-dated to 1971 Xmas. Is this coming from Greg? Because I've seen two pieces of evidence now that suggest he could in fact be right Medieval Braunsteins and early Blackmoor games are happening in the April/May time frame of '71 and start to pick up steam in late summer of that year. Greg Svenson's first game occurred during the Christmas season, and he has pointed out that his first game was not THE first game. Some of the other club memebers had been playing Blackmoor games for some time. That makes sense if it's XMas '71, not so much for Xmas 1970. <shrug> |
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Post by havard on Jul 11, 2017 5:15:29 GMT -6
In one of his videos, Jon Peterson demonstrates that Dave Arneson ran a Medieval Braunstein in 1970 featuring Dave's model of Castle Branzoll. This is the castle Dave later used as Castle Blackmoor. Jon rejects the notion that this was a Blackmoor game mainly on the grounds that the name Blackmoor did not appear and apparently this was closer to Wesely's Braunstein Rules. Personally I think there is no reason not to consider this a Blackmoor game. It features the Castle, Viking (Skandaharian?) raiders and many elements that would carry on into his later Blackmoor Campaign. Here's the video in question: www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EVQsIETO_A-Havard |
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 16, 2017 3:50:13 GMT -6
I split Cedgewick's complaining and such to another thread. Feel free to discuss the Blackmoor Campaign chronology in this one.  |
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