D&D with no levels?

[korgoth]

Probably as a result of the fever that was wracking me with chills last night, I had this thought (which others have probably already had, and I simply haven't read up on):

D&D without levels. The idea would be a swords and sorcery setting, and character abilities would be fixed at character creation (barring in-game craziness, of course). The basic outline would be something like the following:

Class Options:
Swordsman
Sorcerer

Swordsman: 4 HD, Thac0 15, one "Background" choice
Sorcerer: 2+1 HD, Thac0 17, one spell

A Background choice is a catch-all skill suite that suggests what your character can know/do. Like "primitive hunter" or "sellsword" or "burglar" or "blacksmith" or "pirate" or whatever.

Spells all belong to one unified list, and they're all quite good. Not all D&D spells would be included... I haven't made up the list yet. Maybe not some doozies like Cloudkill, but definitely Lightning Bolt, Fireball, Animate Dead, Charm (not limited... works on anybody), Heal (complete), Remove Curse, Curse, Invisibility and so on. Damage/level spells would assume the lowest castable level, so LB and FB would be 5d6 spells (still quite tough!).

The trick is that a Sorcerer gets to cast each spell he knows only once per day, and he knows only 1 to start. He must gain the others by finding scrolls. Also, a Sorcerer can only "know" a number of spells at a time equal to his (INT/4), rounded down. He can "forget" spells he knows and learn others off of scrolls that he finds, if he wishes.

Naturally some spells which are unique to the campaign can be added... one isn't restricted to the canonical list. Like Create Homunculus might be a good one to throw in.

The gods come into play as follows: some spells (formerly "clerical" in nature) are tied to a particular god, and therefore initiates of that god get better mileage out of them (but one is not required to be an initiate to cast them... these are "little 'g' gods" and are compelled by mortal magic). That spell effect bonus and the ability to freely enter the temples of that god are the upside of being an initiate; a required tithe and one or more other burdensome responsibilities are the downsides.

Since the putative milieu is S&S in nature, the gods should mostly be jerks. One I thought of is "Gorg the Toad, Knower of Secrets". He's a big toad that enjoys the flavor of human sacrifices; his followers get the best mileage out of a divinitation spell (perhaps Legend Lore or Identify). You probably have to go to his main temple and manually feed him a human sacrifice every year to keep your membership current.

The standard suite of Stat bonuses apply, if you've got 15+ in the ability:

Str: +1 to hit/damage in melee
Int: +1 Background choice
Wis: +1 to saves
Con: +1 hp per HD
Dex: +1 to hit in missile; +1 to Surprise*; -1 AC
Cha: +1 to reactions

Surprise: +1 to Surprise if whole party has Dex 15+; +1 to Surprise if whole party in No Armor; -1 to Surprise if anyone in party in metal armor

There would be no level advancement. Hit Dice would be rolled per battle as in Carcosa.

The goal of this kind of game would be that the players determine their own goals and need not worry about advancing in level. If they want money, fine; if not, also fine. Ditto with any other possible character pursuit.

Anyway, just a thought.

[billhooks]

I like the sound of it. I suspect that in the absence of leveling up, magical research and stronghold building would become new default goals -- i.e., "if you can't think of anything for your character to do, do this". Which seems fine.

[Finarvyn]

Actually, I have run something along these lines and have a lot of success with it. Basically my plan was to create 4th level "Hero" characters and let the players know that they would be pretty much fixed. No leveling up, no significant changes except for whatever gold and magical items they find. I've not had any players complain, but I also tend to switch campaigns every 9 months or so and this might keep things from becoming too stale.

[kenmeister]

I think levelling up is the "crack" of the D&D drug. Hard to imagine it without it.

[irdaranger]

Oct 10, 2009 20:13:47 GMT -6 kenmeister said:

I think levelling up is the "crack" of the D&D drug. Hard to imagine it without it.

Everyone has their own preferences, but I think many could turn in the leveling "crack" or other kinds of dope. You'd definitely need rewards and feedback loops, but that doesn't mean they need to come in the form of crystal-XP. Traveler was basically a no-leveling game, from what I understand (never played it), and it's definitely popular with a lot of people who also enjoy D&D.

I like it. Some thoughts:

- I would not limit the Sorcerer's max spells known by INT. That makes that particular stat just too important, and anyone with a 16 INT is just going to have too much of an advantage over an 11 INT Sorcerer. Class should matter more than stats, if we're going to be "true" to D&D (other than the lack of leveling). It might be better to say that Sorcerers can know up to three spells, period.

- I'm not sure how the "knowing" and "forgetting" of spells is supposed to work. There are a couple ways to interpret the text you've written. Could you give a few examples? Is there a roll for spellbooks in this game?

- Can you be an initiate to more than one faith?

[thorswulf]

Well it certainly has more of Blackmoor proto D&D vibe to it, as far as I can tell. I like the set level idea, as it reminds me of the chainmail combat system. I'm not sure if one spell is enough for most folks. Learning new ones from scrolls is an excellent idea! The Int limit would work pretty well, and make having a higher stat be worth something. I think I would start Sorcerous types witha selection of 3 spells chosen from the ones listed in chainmail. Yes these are powerful, but they are supposed to be sorcerer's right? Counterspelling would only work if they "knew" the spell to counterspell it. Of couse a dispel Magic spell could be terribly useful as well....

The background thing sounds good as general "skill" or area of knowledge. A veteran caravan guard wight know a great deal about customs of other lands, but wouldn't know diddly about sailing!

As far as gods and religions go, I like the basic premise. Sorcerers are often depicted as servants of demons and the like in S&S pulp fiction. As a matter of fact I think this is one aspect of D&D that never really got the coverage it deserved (narrow minded and over zealous religious bigots don't read any further) as it is a cornerstone of most of Sword and Sorcery as a Genre. Big tough barbarian defeating hordes of demons summoned by nasty sorcerer sums it up pretty well for me. So where are the rules for demons? Make those scrolls work in this aspect. Suddenly that scroll just got even more useful. Just some ideas.

[korgoth]

Another thing I've thought of doing with spellcasting is to give the magic-user only one "innate" spell tied to his path: animate dead for a necromancer, charm for an enchantress, phantasmal force for an illusionist, etc. Then any other spellcasting would be from items (scrolls, wands, rings, etc.). Such a character would begin with an assortment of random potions and other modest magical expendables.

Under this interpretation, perhaps inititates of a god would receive items and magical services from their cult.

Oct 10, 2009 20:34:40 GMT -6 irdaranger said:

I like it. Some thoughts:

- I would not limit the Sorcerer's max spells known by INT. That makes that particular stat just too important, and anyone with a 16 INT is just going to have too much of an advantage over an 11 INT Sorcerer. Class should matter more than stats, if we're going to be "true" to D&D (other than the lack of leveling). It might be better to say that Sorcerers can know up to three spells, period.

- I'm not sure how the "knowing" and "forgetting" of spells is supposed to work. There are a couple ways to interpret the text you've written. Could you give a few examples? Is there a roll for spellbooks in this game?

- Can you be an initiate to more than one faith?

1. Good idea. OD&D doesn't overplay the stats, and that's something good about it.

2. I was thinking of the "known spells" limit as the number of spells a magic-user had in his arsenal at a given time. So if you know Heal, Lightning Bolt and Charm then you can cast each of those once per day. If you had a scroll of Remove Curse, you could "forget" Charm and load up Remove Curse. Later, assuming you had a Charm scroll, you could essentially reverse the process.

3. Probably. This general take on the gods is meant to be very cynical and mercenary. You feed the toad, you get the goodies. The gods don't care about you and don't expect you to like them; it's a purely businesslike relationship.

On point #2, I'm acutally liking my above idea better right now. But I'd still keep the importance of the gods in there.