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Post by havard on Jul 24, 2009 17:37:56 GMT -6
Baleborn Orcs first appeared AFAIK in the 3E DA Blackmoor Sourcebook. They look like Orcs, but with a reddish tinge to their skin and hair. They are much more intelligent than other Orcs and can use arcane magic.
That's it.
Where did they come from? Is this an idea Dave once had? Did they ever appear in his games?
What sort of in-game explanation would you use for their existance? Are they experiments by the Egg of Coot? Or the secret masters of the Stormkiller Mountains? Or something else?
Havard
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Post by James Maliszewski on Jul 24, 2009 18:30:01 GMT -6
I'd be amazed if they had any basis in Dave's own campaign. Much of the Blackmoor content from the 3e era was pure invention of writers other than Dave. I suspect the same is true of the 4e era as well, which is why it's hard for me to get too excited about new Blackmoor products, especially now that Dave is no longer with us.
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Post by havard on Jul 25, 2009 16:43:45 GMT -6
I'd be amazed if they had any basis in Dave's own campaign. Much of the Blackmoor content from the 3e era was pure invention of writers other than Dave. I suspect the same is true of the 4e era as well, which is why it's hard for me to get too excited about new Blackmoor products, especially now that Dave is no longer with us. Uhm, not neccessarily disagreeing with you, but on what basis do you claim that much of the 3E Blackmoor content was the invention of others than Dave? In case of the monster section, these are the same monsters which appeared in the 3E line. Some were taken from the DA series so its easy to understand where they came from, but others, while included lack information about where they fit into the setting. This makes their inclusion seem a bit arbitrary to me. If they were Arneson's inventions it would make sense, but if not, I would at least expect them to give me some info about how and where to use them... Havard |
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 29, 2009 11:01:42 GMT -6
Sadly, I have nothing to add about Baleborn Orcs. I don't recall seeing them anywhere prior to the 3E products; indeed I recal the FFC mentioning "white hand orcs" and "red eye orcs" as a clear nod to Tolkien. Much of the Blackmoor content from the 3e era was pure invention of writers other than Dave. Havard asked about this and James hasn't answered so I thought I'd take a stab at it... While I don't know firsthand how much of the material in d20 Blackmoor was Dave's or not, I assume that the fact that there are four names listed as the "design team" (Dave, Dustin Clingman, a couple of others) that others of the team must have had some input. How much input is hard to say. The bulk of the backgroud, geography, and whatnot is clearly Dave's. I know this because I've read the FFC and have seen many of the same places, names, NPCs, and so on in that book. However, I also note that the 3E mechanic has crept in (as advertised, of course) and know that things like feats and the like weren't part of Dave's original campaign. How many of these were proposed by Dave or by others, I have no way of knowing. In the same way, Dave didn't write 4E for Hasbro and thus much of the 4E material had to have been created just for the revised rulebook. So, my feeling is that with time later Blackmoor books became less and less Dave, and they became more and more "design team" perhaps with his approval but not totally from his own imagination. Just my own opinion, of course. I tend to divide Blackmoor into a couple of piles: Solid Canon Blackmoor* Dave's original notes (wherever they exist) * Temple of the Frog from Supplement II * The Judges Guild First Fantasy Camapign* Various interviews with Dave. * Accounts from Greg and Bob and others who played in his game. * Possibly TSR modules DA1 and DA2. Lesser Blackmoor* TSR modules DA3 and DA4 (which I believe were written by others) * Any Greyhawk or Mystara Blackmoor references * Goodman/Zeitgeist/Code Monkey Blackmoor revival materials for 3E and 4E. I don't mean to imply that the "lesser" works are not good products, but instead that I give them less "Blackmoor validity" and are farther removed from the original Blackmoor campaign from the 1970's. To me, that original campaign is the one that holds the most interest. |
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Post by gsvenson on Jul 29, 2009 14:11:56 GMT -6
From what he told me, DA3 was still mostly Dave's. He considered DA4 to be canon, even though he had input to it or even had a chance to approve it, though.
He also told me that he was involved with the development of the 3E material much more than I realized, when we were talking about it during my visit with him last December. Groups like the Peshwah were really part of the first campaign (Riders of the Hak), for example.
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premmy
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 295
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Post by premmy on Jul 30, 2009 4:30:50 GMT -6
Baleborn Orcs first appeared AFAIK in the 3E DA Blackmoor Sourcebook. They look like Orcs, but with a reddish tinge to their skin and hair. They are much more intelligent than other Orcs and can use arcane magic. That's it. Where did they come from? Is this an idea Dave once had? The way I see it, there's a pretty good lithmus test: If a creature's name includes a compound word with the construction AB, and A comes from the listBale Bane Battle Blade Blood Dark Doom Dusk Flame Leaf Night Shade Shadow Storm Sword Thunder Vine War and B comes from the listBlade Born Flame Forged Leaf Made Shade Wrought , then it's been created by the WotC Marketing Algorithm. Flesh-and-blood humans like Arneson or Gygax don't come up with such crappy names. |
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Post by havard on Jul 30, 2009 18:19:16 GMT -6
Sadly, I have nothing to add about Baleborn Orcs. I don't recall seeing them anywhere prior to the 3E products; indeed I recal the FFC mentioning "white hand orcs" and "red eye orcs" as a clear nod to Tolkien. Yeah, the Red Eye/White Hand Orcs are the only references I can find as well. They would have been removed when other Tolkien references were purged, but this is indeed all the differentiation between types of Orcs I can find as well. I think it would make sense to try to separate crunch (Rules etc) and setting. While not always a clear cut case, it is often easy to just ignore the rules stuff and focus on the setting. Apart from the FFC, I wonder if this is really true. Is there any reason to believe that Dave was less involved in the ZGG line, where he was the co-owner than in the work with Ricthie with the DA series? Assuming the Journey to the City of the Gods belong here? Others would be David Ritchie then? DA4 is the only module that doesnt have Dave Arneson's name on the cover. The Mystara material deals mostly with a possible future of version of Dave Arneson's Blackmoor, which again is set in Mystara's ancient past. So very little of the Mystara material references back to the actual period when most of Arneson's stuff takes place. Except for the DA modules ofcourse. Fair enough. OTOH, even if created by people other than Dave, I am wondering about the reason for including a few elements though. I mean, if I were part of a design team to further develop Blackmoor, I would introduce elements that fit into the setting and appeared as if they had been invented by Dave even though they hadnt. Insted, a few of the things in the 3E book strike me as a bit random. This actually makes me wonder if they could have been included, not because of some design team idea, but actually because this was something that Dave once had come up with. I could picture something like this: Dave: "... and then the Great Svenny went deeper into the Orcs Lair. But the Orcs he encountered here were more powerful...with reddish eyes and they could cast spells" Dustin: "Now that is something that could fit with what 3E calls templates. We could have one that we add to Orcs!" Ofcourse, I have no idea if this could be anywhere close to what really went down  Havard |
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 30, 2009 20:09:44 GMT -6
Apologies for my post having a few inaccuracies. I was doing it from memory instead of having products handy. For example, calling David Ritchie "and others" clearly is absurd.  [Ofcourse, I have no idea if this could be anywhere close to what really went down And of course I don't either, but your scenario is probably somewhat accurate. It's highly possible that Dave made vague suggestions and the design team filled in appropriate details. I'll bet that Dave wasn't really fluent in either 3E or 4E vocabulary and game mechanics. Certainly I know that I'm not. Havard -- you and I have had this general conversation in one form or another before. I'm more of a purist snob and want to focus on the original campaign stuff only, while you are more accepting of newer materials and tend to embrace a wider spectrum of products. I don't think this makes either of us "wrong" and I'm glad that we can both discuss Blackmoor in all versions on this and other boards. It's all good!  |
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Post by gsvenson on Jul 31, 2009 8:48:10 GMT -6
And of course I don't either, but your scenario is probably somewhat accurate. It's highly possible that Dave made vague suggestions and the design team filled in appropriate details. I'll bet that Dave wasn't really fluent in either 3E or 4E vocabulary and game mechanics. Certainly I know that I'm not. I was gaming with two of Dave Arneson's groups in Orlando in the 1999-2002 timeframe. One group was play testing the 3E rules at one point, so he was quite aware of the 3E vocabulary and mechanics. |
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Post by havard on Jul 31, 2009 9:27:59 GMT -6
Apologies for my post having a few inaccuracies. I was doing it from memory instead of having products handy. For example, calling David Ritchie "and others" clearly is absurd. Sorry, but I couldnt resist pointing that one out I think I have even seen statements by ZGG staff that Dave happily let others take care of the 3E specific stuff. I dont know if Dave's suggestions need to have been all that vague either, but they may have "lost something in translation" to the new ruleset. For instance, I wouldnt be surprised if the whole idea about mages using crystals rather than spell books is something Dave might have toyed with for OD&D, though it would likely have appeared differently than in the 3E book. Fin, I always appreciate discussing Blackmoor with you. I find that coming from different angles, I learn alot about Blackmoor from these discussions I dont regard you as a snob by the way. I think it is interesting to delve into what Dave himself has come up with. My own stance probably has to do with my own campaign, which is heretical in alot of ways, changing things to fit my own tastes and that of my group. While introducing new elements though, I try to make sure they have a certain "Blackmoor feel" to them. Going back to the roots seems like the most appropriate way to do so. I think your division between products of greater and lesser Arnesonian content is an interesting starting point. However, I also think it could be interesting to go deeper into those products of "lesser" content and examine which elements might be from Arneson that never previously appeared in the original material... Havard |
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Post by havard on Jul 31, 2009 10:43:34 GMT -6
From what he told me, DA3 was still mostly Dave's. He considered DA4 to be canon, even though he had input to it or even had a chance to approve it, though. He also told me that he was involved with the development of the 3E material much more than I realized, when we were talking about it during my visit with him last December. Groups like the Peshwah were really part of the first campaign (Riders of the Hak), for example. Great input Greg! Another piece of evidence that DA4 was accepted by Dave was the fact that many parts of it was reused by ZGG. He did mention (somewhere) that there were a few things he would like to see changed in an upcoming Duchy of Ten product, but I have no idea which changes those might have been.... Havard |
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Post by havard on Aug 3, 2009 10:33:23 GMT -6
Back to the Orcs. I wonder if the "Balebourne" term could signify a connection to Balrogs, (or Balors)? That would explain reddish taint to their skin and hair. Balrogs also made an appearance in Dave's campaigns. I wonder if there could be one left below the Stormkiller Mountains. Balebourne Orcs live among other orcs, so there is no single tribe of Balebourne. They do tend to operate in units within regular orc tribes though. For some reason they ofte use Katanas...
Havard
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benoist
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
OD&D, AD&D, AS&SH
Posts: 346
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Post by benoist on Aug 7, 2009 23:14:03 GMT -6
They sound like Uruk Hai but on the intelligence and magical side rather than brute force and endurance side-of-things, to me.
Did Dave ever talk about his JRRT inspiration for the Blackmoor campaign?
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