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Post by The Fiendish Dr. Samsara on Jun 7, 2009 2:25:32 GMT -6
This is something I've been playing around with in my head:
Hit Points are supposed to be abstract measurements of how long yuo can last in fight. They aren't "wound points" which is why high level chaps can take multiple strikes. They are doging, rolling, parrying, etc. an dall of that is measured by depleting Hit Points.
But D&D has a bad history of forgetting that. And, actually, that slip is right here when the rules give you extra HP for Constitution and only CON. So, I'm thinking, maybe you should get extra HP for other stats, too.
I was reminded of this when looking at Dragon Wariors the other day. One thing I always liked about that was the way various stats played into your Attack Bonus.
The obvious other one would be DEX, with those HP's explained as dodging skill or whatever (if you must explain it). Maybe WIS too, as keeping your nerve and wits about you.
Thoughts?
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Post by snorri on Jun 7, 2009 4:10:32 GMT -6
This is something I've been playing around with in my head: Hit Points are supposed to be abstract measurements of how long yuo can last in fight. They aren't "wound points" which is why high level chaps can take multiple strikes. They are doging, rolling, parrying, etc. an dall of that is measured by depleting Hit Points. But D&D has a bad history of forgetting that. And, actually, that slip is right here when the rules give you extra HP for Constitution and only CON. So, I'm thinking, maybe you should get extra HP for other stats, too. I was reminded of this when looking at Dragon Wariors the other day. One thing I always liked about that was the way various stats played into your Attack Bonus. The obvious other one would be DEX, with those HP's explained as dodging skill or whatever (if you must explain it). Maybe WIS too, as keeping your nerve and wits about you. Thoughts? For my current campaign, I want to try another way to deal with this HP issue - for at least four reasons: - I play often one-to-one with my wife, so one character alone is weak. - In most groups I had, the cleric is there only as a 'living potion of healing', and barely can't use others spells [even with the 3x idea of spontaneous healing, which is not bad] - a matter of complain for players. -As you stated, this is not what Hit Points are supposed to be. - In comics, novels, films, there are few wounds. The hero kill his foe in one strike - even after a long fight. The idea is easy: - After a fight and a short rest, PC's (and monsters, after all) regains ALL their hit points. - A PC is wounded only when reduced below 0 HP. If no on can heal them, or if they suffer a coup-de-grace, they're dead [butgeneral, they rather awake in a cell / torture chamber, as in any pulp story]. A less radical version could be : wounded at half-hps [so the PC, after a fight, would regain up to half HP's only], and dead at 0. It's closer to the 'pulp roots' and makes HP plays ther role as dfge and energy rather than wounds points. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2009 6:33:21 GMT -6
I'm not the scholar a lot of folks are here but . . . I started with Holmes and despite the years and the editions, that remains the gold standard. And in Holmes, hit points represent the amount of damage you can take which, barring some magical intervention, you couldn't recover until you got back to base and rested. So I never saw hit points as abstract, but rather a pretty specific measure of your ability to withstand physical damage before expiring. In that regard, it made sense that only CON would give you some added benefit.
But yeah, as you note, it isn't exactly logical in terms of leveling up.
Most of the games I run are for kids and almost to a one they have a hard time with their characters dying, often to the point of tears, so I tend to be pretty generous with hit points. For first level, you get your maximum hit die without rolling - just assume you rolled the highest and I let them add all their Constitution score. Yeah, this is major stat inflation (4E does this, I believe, not sure about earlier versions), but it tends to make players less battle wary and increases the odds of survival. When you level up, you roll d8 and add points, rolling over if it's a one.
4E - I know this because a lot of the kids I run games for, including my son, are fiends for it - also has healing surges, so you can recover hit points pretty readily. This is rooted in World of Warcraft, I think. I actually like it within reason. Post battle, I usually allow d4 to be regained - assuming a quick clean-up of wounds, maybe a little stitching, catch your breath, drink some water, whatever. If there's a cleric around, or a healing water drinking fountain, you take what you get there, and the d4 benny isn't an option.
This is not how we do it in the adult games I'm part of - you roll your hit dice, take your damage, and when it hits zero, you die and hope somebody feels like carting your carcass back to the village in hopes a local cleric can be bought off to raise your bones. More often, you just role a new character.
I think the possibility of death is important and shouldn't be ruled out of the game and - notwithstanding the mash-ups I run as a GM - I try to make sure that death and her scythe aren't altogether absent.
One of the challenges I face as a player and just a D&D guy in general, is not overthinking it and just enjoying the game. That's why I consent to blatant hit point inflation with the kids - they have more fun that way and get to be more reckless and crazy in battle. So I say do what makes and keeps the game fun.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jun 7, 2009 9:17:46 GMT -6
In many of my campaigns I seperate "body wound" HP from "getting tired" HP.
What I do is to take the constitution of the player, divide by 2, and call these "body wound" HP. If you lose these HP it hurts and takes a long time to recover. No matter what your dice rolls say, your minimum HP total is no less than your "body wound" HP.
Additional HP above the "body wound" HP are "getting tired" HP. You get them back by sleeping overnight. Or, sometimes I rule that you get one back every 10-15 minutes on the clock. (So, if you play for an hour maybe the characters get 6 HP back.)
Just some thoughts on the issue. :-)
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Matthew
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Master of the Silver Blade
Posts: 254
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Post by Matthew on Jun 7, 2009 10:10:58 GMT -6
I started a good thread on the subject of hit points over at Troll Lord Games a while back, which might interest you: Conceptualising Hit Points. My feeling is that they are a completely abstract measurement of fighting capacity, but that they can also be representative of wounds in the narrative of a combat. I would not be inclined to roll additional attributes into them, but I could see critical hits or something of that nature causing attribute damage. |
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Post by Haldo Bramwise on Jun 7, 2009 12:33:17 GMT -6
In many of my campaigns I seperate "body wound" HP from "getting tired" HP. What I do is to take the constitution of the player, divide by 2, and call these "body wound" HP. If you lose these HP it hurts and takes a long time to recover. No matter what your dice rolls say, your minimum HP total is no less than your "body wound" HP. Additional HP above the "body wound" HP are "getting tired" HP. You get them back by sleeping overnight. Or, sometimes I rule that you get one back every 10-15 minutes on the clock. (So, if you play for an hour maybe the characters get 6 HP back.) Just some thoughts on the issue. :-) That is VERY interesting... |
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Post by The Fiendish Dr. Samsara on Jun 7, 2009 14:33:12 GMT -6
Snorri and Finn---yeah, my current house-rule is that half of the HP's done in a fight heal up after a short rest. It makes sense given the abstract nature, it doesn't unbalance anything (since you still die at 0), and it removes the need to keep planting Healing Potions and Friendly Local Clerics every three feet. Working very well so far.
Bracken--I definitely don't want to just add more HP's to make PC's more indestructible. I've got no problem with 1st level guys geting whacked with one blow. I just like the idea that other stats might do something. It would only amount to an additional point or two at the most.
Matthew--I'l look at the thread. I do think HP represetns wounds; I just think that they represent more than just that. There was a neat idea here a while ago (I think it was Calithena's HD Idea on Steroids), which played around with actually quantifying each Hit Die as something separate. Thus, the 1st HD is wounds, the 2nd is nerve, the 3rd is drive, and so on. Maybe too complex, but intriguing.
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Post by apeloverage on Jun 7, 2009 16:41:32 GMT -6
In many of my campaigns I seperate "body wound" HP from "getting tired" HP. What I do is to take the constitution of the player, divide by 2, and call these "body wound" HP. If you lose these HP it hurts and takes a long time to recover. No matter what your dice rolls say, your minimum HP total is no less than your "body wound" HP. Additional HP above the "body wound" HP are "getting tired" HP. You get them back by sleeping overnight. Or, sometimes I rule that you get one back every 10-15 minutes on the clock. (So, if you play for an hour maybe the characters get 6 HP back.) At higher levels (when HP would be over CON/2), wouldn't this penalise characters with high CON? |
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Post by blackbarn on Jun 8, 2009 13:40:59 GMT -6
This is something I've been playing around with in my head: Hit Points are supposed to be abstract measurements of how long yuo can last in fight. They aren't "wound points" which is why high level chaps can take multiple strikes. They are doging, rolling, parrying, etc. an dall of that is measured by depleting Hit Points. But D&D has a bad history of forgetting that. And, actually, that slip is right here when the rules give you extra HP for Constitution and only CON. So, I'm thinking, maybe you should get extra HP for other stats, too. I was reminded of this when looking at Dragon Wariors the other day. One thing I always liked about that was the way various stats played into your Attack Bonus. The obvious other one would be DEX, with those HP's explained as dodging skill or whatever (if you must explain it). Maybe WIS too, as keeping your nerve and wits about you. Thoughts? For my current campaign, I want to try another way to deal with this HP issue - for at least four reasons: - I play often one-to-one with my wife, so one character alone is weak. - In most groups I had, the cleric is there only as a 'living potion of healing', and barely can't use others spells [even with the 3x idea of spontaneous healing, which is not bad] - a matter of complain for players. -As you stated, this is not what Hit Points are supposed to be. - In comics, novels, films, there are few wounds. The hero kill his foe in one strike - even after a long fight. The idea is easy: - After a fight and a short rest, PC's (and monsters, after all) regains ALL their hit points. - A PC is wounded only when reduced below 0 HP. If no on can heal them, or if they suffer a coup-de-grace, they're dead [butgeneral, they rather awake in a cell / torture chamber, as in any pulp story]. A less radical version could be : wounded at half-hps [so the PC, after a fight, would regain up to half HP's only], and dead at 0. It's closer to the 'pulp roots' and makes HP plays ther role as dfge and energy rather than wounds points. That's the idea I always arrive at as well whenever I think about making sense out of hit points. My ideal D&D would also be more like the S&S pulp roots that are so often cited as what D&D is supposed to be like, but I don't think the rules, as-is, support that style very well, honestly. D&D's also very "wargame-ish" in nature, and those elements are often at-odds with an S&S feel. I'm always keen to make adjustments, and the restoration of HP (more like battle fatigue/weariness) after a short rest makes perfect sense to me. That wouldn't eliminate PC death at all, but would make HP work more sensibly. And then I could eliminate clerics, too!  |
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Post by The Fiendish Dr. Samsara on Jun 8, 2009 14:34:41 GMT -6
That wouldn't eliminate PC death at all, but would make HP work more sensibly. And then I could eliminate clerics, too! Yep and yep. "Kill the Cleric; Keep the Thief" is my new mantra. |
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Post by Finarvyn on Jun 8, 2009 20:30:12 GMT -6
In many of my campaigns I seperate "body wound" HP from "getting tired" HP. What I do is to take the constitution of the player, divide by 2, and call these "body wound" HP. If you lose these HP it hurts and takes a long time to recover. No matter what your dice rolls say, your minimum HP total is no less than your "body wound" HP. Additional HP above the "body wound" HP are "getting tired" HP. You get them back by sleeping overnight. Or, sometimes I rule that you get one back every 10-15 minutes on the clock. (So, if you play for an hour maybe the characters get 6 HP back.) At higher levels (when HP would be over CON/2), wouldn't this penalise characters with high CON? Basically it shouldn't, unless the character gets really crummy HP rolls. If the CON bonus is too high a percentage of the total HP it could be a disadvantage, but in OD&D the bonus is small enough that I don't think it would be a problem. EXAMPLE TIME: 1st level character with 14 CON and 4 HP.* CON/2=7 and 7 is bigger than 4, so he gets 7 "body wound" HP. (Alternately, you could limit him to 4 "body wound" HP if you don't want his total to go up.) * Since 4<7 there would be no "getting tired" HP. * At the next level, suppose he rolls 2 more HP for a total of 6. Still less than 7, so no change in HP. 10th level character with 14 CON and 35 HP.* CON/2=7 and 7 is still less than 4, so he gets 7 "body wound" HP. * Since 7<35 thee would be 28 "getting tired" HP. SAME EXAMPLES, BUT WITH HIGHER CON: 1st level character with 16 CON (bonus of +1) and 4 HP.* CON/2=8, and 8 is bigger than 4+1, so he gets 8 "body wound" HP. (Alternately, you could limit him to 5 "body wound" HP if you don't want his total to go up.) * Since 5<8 there would be no "getting tired" HP. * At the next level, suppose he rolls 2 more HP (and +1 for the level) for a total of 9. Just above 8, he gets 1 "getting tired" HP. 10th level character with 16 CON (bonus of +1) and 35 HP.* CON/2=8 and 8 is still less than 35+10=45, so he gets 8 "body wound" HP. * Since 8<45 thee would be 37 "getting tired" HP. Unless I've miscalculated somewhere, I think the fighter is never at a disadvantage for having a high CON score. (Crosses fingers and hopes math is right....)  |
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Post by blackbarn on Jun 25, 2009 5:51:14 GMT -6
This is something I've been playing around with in my head: Hit Points are supposed to be abstract measurements of how long yuo can last in fight. They aren't "wound points" which is why high level chaps can take multiple strikes. They are doging, rolling, parrying, etc. an dall of that is measured by depleting Hit Points. But D&D has a bad history of forgetting that. And, actually, that slip is right here when the rules give you extra HP for Constitution and only CON. So, I'm thinking, maybe you should get extra HP for other stats, too. In rereading this, it occurs to me that a bonus for CON isn't a problem, since it doesn't represent resistance to wounds, but rather the stamina do do all that dodging, rolling, parrying, etc. Characters get tired avoiding the deadly blows, and CON helps. When they are too fatigued from battle to use those maneuvers anymore, then they are vulnerable. It works, you just have to think about it. If there's a place where D&D forgets that HP are not wound points, I think it's in a Cleric's healing magic. Unless they are just energy boosters and not really curing light wounds, etc... |
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Post by machfront on Jun 25, 2009 6:38:36 GMT -6
This is something I've been playing around with in my head: Hit Points are supposed to be abstract measurements of how long yuo can last in fight. They aren't "wound points" which is why high level chaps can take multiple strikes. They are doging, rolling, parrying, etc. an dall of that is measured by depleting Hit Points. But D&D has a bad history of forgetting that. And, actually, that slip is right here when the rules give you extra HP for Constitution and only CON. So, I'm thinking, maybe you should get extra HP for other stats, too. In rereading this, it occurs to me that a bonus for CON isn't a problem, since it doesn't represent resistance to wounds, but rather the stamina do do all that dodging, rolling, parrying, etc. Characters get tired avoiding the deadly blows, and CON helps. When they are too fatigued from battle to use those maneuvers anymore, then they are vulnerable. It works, you just have to think about it. If there's a place where D&D forgets that HP are not wound points, I think it's in a Cleric's healing magic. Unless they are just energy boosters and not really curing light wounds, etc... Perhaps in the name of the spell, yes. Though I think the healing itself can be rationalized as easily. It's a spirital healing. It just plain makes ya feel better and more confidant, 'brings you back around', etc. |
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gorebonzo
Level 2 Seer
No Honor Among Thieves
Posts: 46
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Post by gorebonzo on Jul 8, 2009 22:27:50 GMT -6
Using the idea that Hit Points are divided into Wounds and Stamina proffered earlier on the page, I've cooked up a little house-ruled chart for what form, exactly, those nasty wounds take.
I just cooked this up. Like, now. So no playtesting. I prefer things fairly brutal in my combats, so we'll see how it plays. Here goes:
HIT POINTS DIVIDED!
Your character’s hit points are now divided into two separate totals - Wounds, representing your bodily damage, and Stamina - reflecting your ability to dodge, parry and so on. Hit Points are spread between these two cups. Your maximum Wound total is equal to 1/2 your CON score. Any HPs that exceed this total go into his Stamina.
When a character takes damage to his wound points, he suffers some rather grave effects. Roll 1d20 on the table below. Each is organized as a L (light), S (serious) or R (regenrate) showing the cure spell that must be cast to heal its effects.
Wound Result
Roll Cat Effect
1-5 N/A Just skewers the meat or jostles your bones. No lasting damage.
6-9 L Broken Bone! -4 DEX for four weeks, or until healed with a cure light wounds spell!
10 L Scar. You receive a nasty scar on your arm, leg or torso - something that can be covered up by clothing.
11 S Disfiguring Scar! -1d6 CHA points for a facial scar that will never quite heal.
12-14 L Stunned! You’re blinded by pain and must make a save vs. paralyzation / death ray or pass out for 2d8 minutes of fitful agony.
15 R Severed Finger! One of your fingers is smashed to a pulp or knocked clean off. -1 DEX until there’s no fingers left to lop off.
16 R Severed Ear! One of your ears is caved in or shorn off. You’re fairly poor at hearing now, and cannot make listen at doors checks - at least not with any ability.
17 R Severed Eye! One of your eyes is smashed or stabbed away. You receive -5 to all attack rolls.
18 R Severed Hand! One of your hands is smashed insensible or lopped away. Your DEX is lowered by 5, and you can’t hold anything in that hand.
19 R Severed Arm! One of your arms is destroyed. Your DEX is reduced by 7, and you can’t hold anything with the severed hand.
20 N/A SEVERED HEAD! Immediate death!
Using this rule, low-level combat becomes incredibly deadly - whereas high level combat shows a great deal of skill on the part of the combatants, even when they get beat up. They aren’t getting hit, they’re getting tired. Great for a dramatic arc to combat, but a bloody ending.
(That bit at the end is flavor for my house rule sheet)
Right now... I think I need more intermediate wounds, beside just the severed limbs. Some stuff to work out "Cure Serious Wounds," y'know?
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Post by apeloverage on Jul 9, 2009 7:16:19 GMT -6
Unless I've miscalculated somewhere, I think the fighter is never at a disadvantage for having a high CON score. (Crosses fingers and hopes math is right....) What about this: 10th level Fighters, both with 36 Hit Points. The first has CON of 9, the second has CON of 14. The first Fighter will have 4 Body Hit Points and 32 Fatigue Hit Points. The second Fighter will have 7 Body Hit Points and 29 Fatigue Hit Points. So the second Fighter seems to be disadvantaged by their higher CON (assuming the only difference is how long they take to recover: you could add a system where some wounds, eg from poison, bypass Fatigue HP). |
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jjarvis
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 278
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Post by jjarvis on Jul 9, 2009 11:45:43 GMT -6
This is something I've been playing around with in my head: Hit Points are supposed to be abstract ....when the rules give you extra HP for Constitution and only CON. So, I'm thinking, maybe you should get extra HP for other stats, too... Thoughts? Characters do ultimately get extra HP for other stats too, characters with higher stats are more likely to gain levels and as such hit dice and of course HP with those levels. A Fighter with a STR of 16 who earns 1910 exp is going to be 2nd level (because of bonus EXP) and likely have 7 hp a Fighter with a STR of 12 earning the same EXP will still be 1st level and likely have 4 hp. |
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