Thoughts on Thieves and Skills

[robertsconley]

Here, savevspoison.blogspot.com/2009/04/perception-senses-and-searching-in.html, at Save vs Poison Ryan talks about Perception. It got me thinking about skills, the thief, and D&D in general.

I think that for any skill based system You can combine the negotiated approach with the mechanical approach by limiting the times you need to roll.

For example if there is a chest covered by garbage then the player "says I will undercover the garbage" they will find the chest.

If however it is a jewel in that pile. Then I would have a roll because it may be missed despite the player digging through it.

If the player insist on standing at the door and looking around the room. Then you would roll for the chest in the garbage (the garbage is piled up unusually) but there would little or no chance to spot the jewel.

This the approach GURPS takes to avoid incessant rolling of skills. And I apply this technique to any skill based system.

Now for older editions of D&D what I would do it make sure that everybody can to a base series of actions. (Perception, climb, stealth, etc).


The thief class would sacrifice combat ability in order to be good at something else. I wouldn't even call it a thief class. More like a rouge class. A thief would be one of the many rogues that sacrificed combat ability to so something better.

In the thief case, the thief is better at things involving dexterity. A thug in contrast would be focused on strength, and charisma to rule his gang. Other combinations could be made for Conmen, Merchant Adventurers, etc.

The other classes are not prevented doing the skill based stuff. But because they are focused on fighting, praying, or spells they never are as good as the rogue.

The problem with the original Thief that it implies that only the thief can do certain things. Just only the fighter get the high HD and good to hit bonus. Only the magic-user get to cast wizard spells.

If they instead laid out how everybody could climb, perceive, jump, etc, and gave thief a bonus then I think everyone would have a better feeling about the thief class or in my class the rogue class .

I did think of other class that I would consider a rogue, the Mountebank. In my mind a Mountebank is someone who lost some fighting ability but gained the ability to cast a small number of Wizard's spells. Throw in hiding, and sleight of hand/pickpocket I think that would be a good addition to the game.

[machfront]

Apr 24, 2009 13:16:13 GMT -6 robertsconley said:

The problem with the original Thief that it implies that only the thief can do certain things. Just only the fighter get the high HD and good to hit bonus. Only the magic-user get to cast wizard spells.

I'll never understand why this is viewed as a problem.

It doesn't disallow the fighter from being stealthy or the magic-user from climbing a steep surface or anyone from looking around in the right place and the right way to find a trap.
What it does is keep them from making no audible sound whatsoever when they move like the thief can. It keeps them from climbing things that a 'normal' person would consider impossible to climb because they're so "sheer". It keeps them from being able to find evidence of a trap so easily and quickly that it looks to others as though it's a sixth sense or something similarly preternatural.

Anyone can fight, but the fighter takes it above and beyond.
Same deal with the thief.

Anyone can skulk around and steal and generally be a crook, no matter the class... but a Thief is already past the back-alley knock-to-the-head and the grab-it-and-run and is (at first level) just starting on his way to hopefully becoming James Caan in Thief, Robert DeNiro in Heat, Thomas Crown, etc.

This is why I have no problem having descriptions and rolls and non-thieves and thieves and non-Thieves and Thieves side-by-side and all at once in a game.

[robertsconley]

I probably wouldn't call them skills, but rather tasks. They would be setup so the referee can use them as means of resolving the situations they cover regardless of class.

What about the mechanic itself? I find it useful to look back at the source material and see what they did. While digging through the City-State of the Invincible Overlord I found a rule that Bob Bledsaw used.

Basically if a character felt they could do something extraordinary with an attribute then they got take percentage dice and try to roll under it. Thus a if character wanted to bend bars with his 15 strength he has to roll 15% or lower. They add a few wrinkles about repeated attempts if the characteristic was prime requisite (shades of Castles & Crusades!), and straining yourself if you roll doubles.

I looked at that and while seems like a good starting point I really don't like the percentage roll low. I think D&D works better if you roll high. Plus I want to try to keep percentage dice out of it and just go with a d20. I know that is like newer editions but that one point I think they got right.

However Bob gave pretty low odds of success, 15% for a 15 strength. Plus I want to avoid subtraction if possible.

What I will go with is this. If you want to succeed with a task based on one of your attributes then you need to roll a d20. If you roll higher or equal to a 20 you succeed. You get a bonus for your attribute as follows

16 to 18 +3
11 to 15 +2
6 to 10 +1
3 to 5 +0

Mathematically it works out pretty close. Person with a 15 strength still will only have a 15% chance of success. 18 or higher on a d20.

20 would be an automatic success, a 1 a automatic failure.

In the real world if you are more careful i.e. take longer then you more apt to succeed.

If you are careful it takes 10 times longer to complete the task but you get to add the higher bonus of your intelligence (smarts) or wisdom (perseverance and common sense)

Some tasks (like Spell Research) may have this built in as they always take a long time to do.

Rogues, mentioned in the previous article, will get bonuses to various task over and above the attribute bonus. But they would have sacrificed combat ability or HD because of their focus.

[machfront]

I got really sidetracked and went all ranty. Sorry 'bout that.

I agree with you concerning percentiles. I really can't say why it is, but rolling percentile doesn't feel as D&D-ish as a d6, d12 or d20 for some strange reason. Maybe I'm just weird.
Plus I like the bigger percentage 'chunks' with the smaller dice.

I like this, and I probably would be ok with someone somehow gaining a non-class focus (call it a skill or talent or whatever) to add another +1 to a task related to that focus. As long as the bonus(es) with the focus is kept small and perhaps are only gained every handful of levels it wouldn't go too far.

[dwayanu]

I agree with machfront (Why a problem?), except that I recall running into the troublesome interpretation among many players.

I am not big on using that first step of "niche protection" as warrant for more and more of a "skills system" in D&D (which is the way certain later editions went) -- but suit yourself.

Ability scores can often be a good starting point for probabilities, and I happen to like d%. Score x 5% (or score or less on d20) gives an average score roughly even odds. A x 1/2 multiplier brings low scores below 5%, while x10 means that only below-average scores yield less than 100%.

There are lots of ways for a DM to come up with a reasonable chance of success; use whatever works for you.

For something systematic, Tunnels & Trolls, Traveller, RuneQuest and Palladium are just a few of the many, many examples already extant.

[robertsconley]

I was making a note from reading what other people say about the thieves.

I always felt the percentage system felt shoe horned onto D&D. Switching to a d20 roll high can be done and still give close to the same odds.

Plus there is a role for adventuring classes that can do things better than other classes that are skill related. Which the reason for the whole thief class to begin with. Lest we forget in the original Blackmoor, while the cleric was to allow somebody to play a vampire hunter, there was also a merchant class as well.

[robertsconley]

I did some work coming up with Tasks for my Rouge sub-classes

Individual Tasks

Area of Knowledge (Type)
Hard: INT, Average: INTx2
Area of Knowledge represents a field of study that the character specializes in. Recommended areas include: Accounting, Geography, Herblore, History, Law, Mathematics, Natural Philosophy, Physician, Strategy, Thaumatalogy, Theology. Rolls using Area of Knowledge should only have to be made during situations where time is important such as a debate, haggling, or a trial.

Accounting
Represent knowledge of local finances and the management of goods and money. This is useful for merchant characters interested in setting up trade deals.

Geography, History, Law, Theology
If cultures, religions and different regions are important to the campaign these skills may be further limited in scope. Still working on coming up with tasks for these.

Herblore
Finding common herbs takes one week and is an average task. If successful 2d6 doses are found.
Finding rare components is a hard task and often requires killing of specific monsters. If successful 1d6 dose are found. If a individual monster is slain only one dose may be harvested.

Mathematics
This skill is typically used in construction, building siege engines and other engineering tasks. It is an average task to reduce the amount of time and materials by 10%. Success at a hard task can reduce the amount of time and materials by 20%.

Natural Philosophy
This represents knowledge of botany, zoology, geology, and other natural phenomena. In most fantasy campaigns technological development hasn’t reached the point where these fields have separated.

If the character has a complete round to observe it is a average task to identify a unknown monster.
It is a hard task to identify a unknown monster in the middle of combat.

If the character has a complete round to examine a passageway it is a average task to tell whether it is sloping or rising.
It is a hard task to examine a cavern or dungeon passage to see if it is unstable and prone to collapse.

Physician
This can be used to help a character to accelerate healing. It is an average task to help a character heal 2 hp/day with the character completely healed in 3 weeks. It is a hard task to help a help a character heal 4 hp/day with the character completely healed in 2 weeks. It is a hard task to tend to a character that has been poisoned. On a successful roll a physician will reduce the damage taken from the poison by ½ well as cut the duration of any ill-effects by ½.

Strategy
If the character succeeds on a hard task roll he may inflict damage on the opposing unit in the first round of combat. If the character succeeds on a average task he may modify any favorable or unfavorable terrain modifier by 1.

Thaumatalogy
This aids in researching magic. Success at a hard task will identify the powers of an item that is known to be magic in the heat of combat.


Bending & Lifting
Hard: STR, Average: STRx2
This is useful for task involving feats of raw strength.

It is a hard task to bend bars ½” or larger in diameter.
It is a hard task to smash open a locked or barred door.
It is an average task to lift a locked heavy gate.

It is an average task to push open a stuck door.
It is an average task to lift an unlocked heavy gate.

Climbing
Hard: DEX, Average: STR+DEX
It is an average task to climb with a rope or a steep incline. It is a hard task to climb a sheer face. If the character is encumbered then he is at -2 to his task roll.

Climbing with a rope is at 12 feet per round
Climbing a steep incline is at 8 feet per round
Climbing a sheer face is at 6 feet per round.

Eavesdrop
Hard:INT, Average: INT+WIS
It is a hard task to listen to a single conversation in a crowded tavern.
It is a hard task to listen through a stone wall or other thick surface.
It is a average task to listen through a door or shuttered window.

Intimidation
Hard:STR Average:STR+CHA

It is a hard task to force somebody to talk. For every hp of damage you inflict up to 4 you gain +1 to the task roll.
It is a average task to force an attacking crowd to check morale. This will fail if you are outnumbered by more than 2 to 1.

Jumping
Hard: STR Average:STR+DEX

It is a Average Task to Jump over a 2’ foot obstacle.
If the character is encumbered then it becomes a Hard Task.
For every foot over 2 foot it is -1 to the Task Roll.
If the task fails the character will stumble and not clear the height. A roll of a 1 means the character fall prone to the ground.

Legerdemain
Hard:DEX Average: DEX+2
This aids in performing tasks involving manual dexterity.

It is a hard task to pickpocket a mark that is alone.
It is a average task to pickpocket a mark that is in the midst of a crowd.
It is a average task to perform a sleight of hand trick when you are 5’ feet or more away from an audience
It is a hard task to perform a sleight of hand trick when you are closer than 5’ feet to an audience.

Locution
Hard:CHA Average:INT+CHA

It is a hard task to rally a broken unit in mass combat

In the initial round of a combat a character may engage in a repartee with the enemy. This is a average task and if successful will halt everybody in earshot for 1 round that understands the speaker’s language. The enemy may counter with a repartee of their own. It is stressed that character should role-play this before making the roll. A repartee may not be done in if the character is surprised.

In the initial round of combat, a character may attempt a Witticism on a single individual that understand his language. This is a hard task and if successful the character will gain the initiative due the target laughing or being angered. It is stressed that character should role-play this before making the roll. A witticism may not be done in if the character is surprised.

It is a average task to haggle a price that is 10% better in favor of the character.
It is a hard task to haggle a price that is 20% better in favor of the character.

Manipulate
Hard:DEX Average: INT+DEX
This aids in performing tasks in manipulating small mechanical devices.

It is a average task to disable a known trap.
It is a average task to pick a lock open with thieves picks.
It is a hard task to pick open a trapped lock or a trapped chest with a lock without triggering the trap.
It is a hard task to pick a lock open with inadequate tools.

Perceive
Hard:WIS Average:INT+WIS
It is a hard task to spot a target that hidden in shadow or well covered.
It is a average task to spot a target sneaking through a well-lit or open area.
Note these task assume that the target has made his stealth task roll.

It is a average task to notice an medium size or large feature of an area in the middle of combat.
It is a hard task to notice a small feature of a an area in the middle of combat.

Professional (type)
Hard: varies Average: varies+Wis
The referee may define additional rules for crafting items made by different professions. Baker, Blacksmith, Cooper, Jeweler, etc. The hard task characteristic will vary based on the profession. For example STR for blacksmith, and DEX for a Jeweler.

It is a hard task to create a masterwork item.
It is a average task to evaluate the worth of a item made by that profession.
It is a average task to reduce the time and material cost by 10%.
It is a hard task to reduce the time and material cost by 20%.

Research
This aids in magical research.
It is a average task to reduce the time and material cost by 10%.
It is a hard task to reduce the time and material cost by 20%.

Riding
Hard: STR Average: STR+CON
Need to come up with stuff under riding.

Stealth
Hard: DEX Average: WIS+DEX
It is a average task to sneak around or hide in areas with heavy shadowed or have heavy cover.
It is a hard task to sneak around or hide in areas that are well-lit or are open.

Survival (type)
Hard: CON Average: CON+WIS
This represents the combined skills of hunting, tracking, and foraging in the wilderness. This may be limited by the referee to specific types of terrain.

It is a Average Task to track a trail less than 6 hours old.
It is a Hard Task to track a trail between 6 hours and two days old.
The terrain may modify the task roll. -2 for rocky terrain, -2 for well trodden pathways or game trails. -4 for high traffic paths like city streets. +4 for snow and sandy surfaces, however the weather may quickly erase tracks.

It is a Average Task to identify the type of creature by its tracks.
It is a Average Task to find 1 day’s ration in Jungle, Forest, and Plains; takes 6 hours to complete.
It is a Hard Task to find 1 day’s ration in Desert, Mountains, Tundra, and Ice Terrain; takes 8 hours to complete.