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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 11, 2009 11:58:54 GMT -6
I just wanted to say that this is a good thing, and I hope that it will continue in the future.
With Dave's passing it occured to me that it was good that FO! was able to dedicate an issue to him while he was around to appreciate it, as compared to the dedication to Gary after the fact.
I decided to buy a PDF copy of FO! #2, even though I already have a print copy.
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Thangobrind
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Post by Thangobrind on Apr 11, 2009 15:51:06 GMT -6
Who are some of the names FIGHT ON! is considering for future issue dedications?
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Post by kelvingreen on Apr 11, 2009 16:31:37 GMT -6
There was a thread about possible future dedications, but I can't find it now. There was talk of Ian Livingstone (and Steve Jackson) being contenders for an upcoming issue.
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Post by harami2000 on Apr 11, 2009 16:54:31 GMT -6
There was a thread about possible future dedications, but I can't find it now. There was talk of Ian Livingstone (and Steve Jackson) being contenders for an upcoming issue. <imho> Would be a strange choice and curious to know on what "justification" grounds. Lee Gold, for example, has always encouraged diversity whereas Ian and Steve, in the end, throttled that (or rather, they had the power to stop that from happening and decided not to act and as a direct result RPGing in the UK entered a pretty dire "dark age"). Removing Fighting Fantasy from their credits - which, on reliable account, was a spark of an idea taken from one of their staff members and never credited, since - there's not much else to say for Ian and Steve RPG-side save that they helped provide a worthy base for the establishment of RPGing in the UK, then abandoned that. If looking for names over here Don Turnbull, for one, would be a rather more "worthy" candidate regardless of any idiosyncrasies he had. </imho> |
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 11, 2009 23:57:31 GMT -6
I'm most looking forward to a dedication to M. A. R. Barker.
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yesmar
Level 4 Theurgist
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Posts: 197
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Post by yesmar on Apr 12, 2009 1:39:40 GMT -6
Second the M.A.R. Barker recommendation.
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Post by kelvingreen on Apr 12, 2009 7:31:00 GMT -6
Would be a strange choice and curious to know on what "justification" grounds. Well, it's all in the thread I can't find, so I can't really help you there. Jackson and Livingstone were instrumental to bringing roleplaying to the UK; I'm sure it would have come here without them, but the push they gave it through Games Workshop and White Dwarf was significant. I think it's easy to look at what GW became, and overlook their early contributions to the hobby. Don Turnbull was also influential, but his contributions were pretty much restricted to D&D, and I'm not sure the game was quite as dominant over here as it was in the US. |
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Post by harami2000 on Apr 12, 2009 10:59:27 GMT -6
> Well, it's all in the thread I can't find, so I can't really help you there. Hmm... board software ain't the friendliest, I must admit. This thread? odd74.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=fanzine&action=display&thread=1848> Jackson and Livingstone were instrumental to bringing roleplaying to the UK; I'm sure it would have come here without them, but the push they gave it through Games Workshop and White Dwarf was significant. Yes it was significant, but they were shop-keepers first and foremost, trying to turn a buck. Enthusiastic shop-keepers admittedly, but there were plenty of those in FLGSs, too. What are their actual roleplaying credits aside from Fighting Fantasy (an extension of an old idea further sparked to them, but uncredited)? Ian and Steve did not "bring roleplaying" to the UK, but struck it lucky on timing on a deal and managed edge out the previous best-known TSR distributor in the country, Walter Luc Haas, purely because Gary thought he needed a local partner and mistook GW for being larger than they actually were. > I think it's easy to look at what GW became, and overlook their early contributions to the hobby. *nods* Ain't overlooking that. They did good work, then they (both the company and Ian & Steve) betrayed their roots. You won't find a single word from either of them decrying what GW has become whereas Don had the carpet pulled out from under his feet, which was hardly his fault. > Don Turnbull was also influential, but his contributions were pretty much restricted to D&D, and I'm not sure the game was quite as dominant over here as it was in the US. Well, Don introduced Ian and Steve to non-traditional gaming as a whole, IIRC, and had established and built up such gaming fields in the UK since the 60s. He was no less enthusiastic about RPGs as a whole as can be seen from his reviews but, yes, somewhat more focused on to D&D. Which ain't necessarily a point of disqualification in context, I'd've hoped. As to how dominant D&D was, well there /was/ no competition when RPGing started over here in 1974 and try checking out the huge survey in WD just before GW decided to cull all competitors, first on the fan side (and their behavior at the cons in that regard is legendary), then on the professional side... Given that FO! is a fanzine, dedicating an issue to the very people whose company slaughtered the UK fanzine scene would hardly seem appropriate in my book. (And even if they weren't in "full control" of that, neither did they lift a finger to try to stop it). But that's just my 02c, fwiw. Cheers, David. |
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Post by harami2000 on Apr 12, 2009 11:09:11 GMT -6
Second the M.A.R. Barker recommendation. Mmm... I know Geoffrey has a bias in this, but no reason to disagree. Not least that one of Dave Arneson's final posts over here (which I was about to reply to, when I finally noticed it, but for my OCR packing up this time last week) explicitly mentioned Barker as comparison in the "NIH" stakes vs. Snider and co. from his side of the fence (Dave was being polite about how he phrased that, IMHO). How far back would you be looking to go back with Barker, since that's a /fascinating/ topic worthy of an article (or four) in its own right?  Plenty other candidates, of course; the one on my mind just now being Paul Jaquays who IMO would merit such a dedication several times over. (Working on his wikipedia page (hush, hush) since I couldn't believe he didn't have one yet). Or Lee Gold (hey guys, please send some work her way too and support A&E if you value continuity). |
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Post by Melan on Apr 12, 2009 11:22:40 GMT -6
It would be a really cool idea if dedications were coupled with in-depth interviews - how these people see gaming, its history and present, and themselves in it. Lee Gold, for example, is a complete mystery to me. I know she is running A&E, but aside from that, what is she playing? Etc. etc. etc.
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Post by kelvingreen on Apr 12, 2009 11:49:35 GMT -6
That's the one, thanks! While D&D was of course the dominant rpg over here, just as it was in the US, I've always had the feeling that other games, particularly Runequest and Call of Cthulhu, were relatively more popular than they were in their home country. I can't back this up with figures, alas, but the UK scene has always seemed to me to be less of an exclusive D&D stronghold. As such, I would have thought a dedication to Turnbull specifically would be a bit narrow in focus. I suppose it all depends on what the Fight On! guys want to celebrate; roleplaying in general in the UK, or British D&D specifically. |
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Post by harami2000 on Apr 12, 2009 12:15:19 GMT -6
It would be a really cool idea if dedications were coupled with in-depth interviews - how these people see gaming, its history and present, and themselves in it. Like those "My Life and Role-Playing" interviews in DW, eh?  *nods* agreed, if poss. I know she is running A&E, but aside from that, what is she playing? Etc. etc. etc. Right this minute? Easy enough to ask her, I guess, and she's been very friendly/helpful in the past. Was certainly running multiple campaigns on a frequent (~weekly) basis until fairly recently and get the impression from her columns that she's had a look in on pretty much everything within FO!'s BITD scope. I'd better just clarify that's not just a thumbs-up for A&E but also as a key figure in the grass-roots growth/development of the hobby from 1974 onwards (albeit West Coast ) - and it was grass-roots led in large part, rather than Greyhawk/Blackmoor-led, say - as well as being a RPG author in her own right. Bob & Bill, Lee, and others like them picked up the slack D&D-side until TSR finally hit its stride sometime around 1977/8 and without a degree of grass-roots "rebellion" TSR could easily have over-controlled the ruleset/concept and stifled the creativity it claimed to support. |
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Post by harami2000 on Apr 12, 2009 13:54:58 GMT -6
Apols. for the delay: general browser, OS and disk issues all over the place these last few days and crashing left, right and centre. And no sign of a virus to blame: just having to try to rebuild on the fly...While D&D was of course the dominant rpg over here, just as it was in the US, I've always had the feeling that other games, particularly Runequest and Call of Cthulhu, were relatively more popular than they were in their home country. I can't back this up with figures, alas, but the UK scene has always seemed to me to be less of an exclusive D&D stronghold. *nods* Not just non-conformist behavior, since that should also have spawned more home-grown systems as well as hardware; or that the population distribution made it easier to find people interested in playing other systems (and the fanzine network supported those). Yes, GW played a part in the "lesser dominance" of xD&D, which I'm sure it's true to a degree, since they had to try to keep things open as they were selling to the whole marketplace. (Remember what the inside of a GW shop used to look like?) I suppose it all depends on what the Fight On! guys want to celebrate; roleplaying in general in the UK, or British D&D specifically. Still a good question, that?
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Post by ragnorakk on Apr 12, 2009 14:19:40 GMT -6
Barker definately.
Perhaps a stretch, but dedicate one to Tramp. Can do a write up on
Titan today (just recently reprinted by http://valleygames.ca). Maybe lure
him back (not likely).
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Thangobrind
Level 3 Conjurer
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Post by Thangobrind on Apr 12, 2009 15:47:59 GMT -6
An issue dedicated to M. A. R. Barker is an excellent proposition. Throw in an interview with the man, and I'll buy both print and PDF versions!
And knowing next-to-nothing about the British D&D scene, I would love to find out more about it.
What about Ken St. Andre? T&T certainly qualifies as Old School.
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Post by harami2000 on Apr 12, 2009 16:32:03 GMT -6
What about Ken St. Andre? T&T certainly qualifies as Old School. And knowing next-to-nothing about the British D&D scene, I would love to find out more about it. *g* A dedication to British fanzine editors/authors might be just a tad generic? Nice idea though that might be... |
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Post by calithena on Apr 12, 2009 17:27:08 GMT -6
Just got back from being out of town. Lee Gold and M.A.R. Barker are coming up soon. Many others are on the short list as well. A lot of people will get props before we're all done, hopefully!
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Post by harami2000 on Apr 12, 2009 19:08:43 GMT -6
Cool! But better be careful if talking with Lee as to the concept of "all done". On a quarterly schedule you'll take until just into the 22nd century to get to where she is at present. The printing presses go ever on, eh? Enjoy! d. |
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busman
Level 6 Magician
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Post by busman on Apr 12, 2009 21:51:36 GMT -6
Probably not quite a right fit, but Marc Miller for Traveller. It was the only thing that ever really threatened D&D in a large scale way. It was HUGE for a while, HUGE.
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Post by Zulgyan on Apr 12, 2009 22:00:47 GMT -6
I second the idea of trying to get interviews. They are usually very interesting to read.
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bert
Level 4 Theurgist
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Post by bert on Apr 13, 2009 13:50:42 GMT -6
While D&D was of course the dominant rpg over here, just as it was in the US, I've always had the feeling that other games, particularly Runequest and Call of Cthulhu, were relatively more popular than they were in their home country. I can't back this up with figures, alas, but the UK scene has always seemed to me to be less of an exclusive D&D stronghold. As such, I would have thought a dedication to Turnbull specifically would be a bit narrow in focus. I suppose it all depends on what the Fight On! guys want to celebrate; roleplaying in general in the UK, or British D&D specifically. I don't know if me and my old gaming mates were typical, but we certainly played more Runequest, Traveller and CoC than D&D. The conventions of the time were pretty diverse on the fringes, but D&D was still no 1. when Warhammer started coming in, that drove out almost everything else in pretty short order due to GWs domination of the UK market. I was told by an artist who worked for them that they even had (or perhaps still have) a department called 'World Domination' solely aimed at marketing tricks and stunts to put other game companies out of business and make their product the only one sold in the UK at least. Certainly seems to have worked amongst the kiddies - only games club in my town is a Warhammer dominated one full of 14 year olds with vastly over priced minis. In the early days White Dwarf was a good mag, full of a wide range of games and nice ideas, and whatever else you might say about Warhammer, the roleplaying game they derived from it has a unique and IMO very British gritty lowlife atmosphere to it. |
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Post by stonetoflesh on Apr 13, 2009 14:07:12 GMT -6
How about a dedication to James M. Ward?
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Post by grodog on Apr 13, 2009 15:55:12 GMT -6
IMO others worth digging into are (TSR-wise, in no particular order):
- Rob Kuntz
- Brian Blume
- Lenard Lakofka
- Lawrence Schick
- Jim Ward
- and many others who appear only in "Special Thanks" in the MM, PHB, and DMG (perhaps grouping them 2-5 at a time, including Peter Aronson, Joe Fischer, Ernie Gygax, Al Hammack, Jeff Key, Jeff Leason, Alan Lucian, Will Niebling, Gregory Rihn, Doug Schwegman, Skip Williams, and others who's role I undoubtedly don't know sufficiently enough about to call out individually)
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 13, 2009 17:10:03 GMT -6
IMO others worth digging into are (TSR-wise, in no particular order): - Rob Kuntz - Brian Blume - Lenard Lakofka - Lawrence Schick - Jim Ward Allan, these are great names! I was going to suggest Blume and Ward, and can't believe that Kuntz hasn't gotten more attention. I would be inclined to look at dedications in layers: 1. Folks highly associated with the early days of OD&D (supplements, etc) 2. Folks highly assocated with the early days of TSR (Boot Hill, Metamorphosis Alpha, Gamma World, early Dragon Mag, that kind of thing) 3. Folks highly associated with "old school" fantasy RPGs of the 1970's and early 1980's. (T&T, Runequest) 4. Folks highly associated with "old school" RPGs in general of the 1970's and early 1980's. (Traveller) 5. Folks highly associated with the "old school" revival. So (for example) I would probably recognize Kuntz and Ward before St.Andre or Perrin since OD&D fits our mission more than T&T or RuneQuest, and hold Miller off for a while since Traveller is huge but outside of our main scope. No disrespect intended to any of the gaming pioneers, but I think I would try to emphasize the people who contributed to the types of games that are featured in Fight On! and hold off on other games' contributors for a while. Just my two coppers. |
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Post by calithena on Apr 13, 2009 18:16:34 GMT -6
Many of these names have been suggested in past threads on this subject and they are all great choices. In the meantime we have to lay out #5....
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