Gangbusters (1982)

[Finarvyn]

My son and I watched "The Untouchables" last night and he got really inspired to play a gangster style game. I remembered that I have a copy of Gangbusters but haven't really ever played it much, and any actual play was so long ago that I can't remember a lot about it.

So I thought I'd consult with the experts.

1. What do you think of the game system?

2. How does it stack up against other gangster style RPGS?

[Finarvyn]

An additional puzzle ...

I have the boxed (1E) version of the game and notice that RPGNow is selling a PDF for a 3E version of the game, but nowhere have I found anything about 2E.

I'm wondering if they revised the game like Boot Hill did, so that the 3E version might not use percentile dice? Just me guessing.

1. Anyone know what makes one edition of Gangbusters different from another?

2. Which is the "better" one?

[amityvillemike]

I've never played any version of GB so I can't give any advice on what the differences are.

But a quick check of the intertubes tells me that there wasn't an actual 2nd edition of the game. It appears that the 2nd edition was mislabed as the 3rd edition and they just went with it instead of correcting the error.

Source: Wikipedia

[yesmar]

I played the original Gangbusters a long, long time ago. We had fun with it and I have good memories.

[coffee]

I have that 3e pdf, and used to own the first edition boxed set.

It doesn't look to me like they changed much at all; the pdf is of a perfect-bound book instead of separate books for the rules and the introductory adventure. Also, it includes info from the first and third modules (which I also used to own).

But I never really played it; my friends wanted to play AD&D.

[grodog]

GB is fun, and the modules are cheap, so if you pick them up, you've got plenty of material for a rum-running campaign. Also: since it's set in the 1920s, if you already have some Call of Cthulhu books, you're covered for 1920s source material too!

[kesher]

We played a spate of it back in 83 or 84, maybe right around when The Untouchables came out?

Anyhow, I still have my box set, which I'll dig out and look through tomorrow. My memory tells me the system was light and easy. It also, interestingly for the time, encouraged players to play gangsters AND lawmen, playing against one another, and I'm pretty sure there was some advice for how to successfully pull that off.

[coffee]

I recall reading the designer's notes in the Dragon. In the playtest campaign, anybody who played a criminal and survived to third level "had performed a minor miracle." (Their subsequent characters were on the proper side of the law, apparently.)

But it sounded like a lot of fun.

[dwayanu]

As you have a copy, you can double-check my memory. For what it's worth ...

I found the game system a lot of fun. As I recall, there was a class/level scheme that simultaneously grounded people used to D&D and imparted some topical flavor. The combat rules made for a nifty sub-game, especially with the maps and counters provided; I associate it in memory with Boot Hill (the first boxed edition, anyway).

There seemed to be just enough rules for everything from the character level to the campaign level -- not just combat! I think it had a rich helping of the old-school particularity that some new-school types consider bad design next to generic "universal systems," but far from the complexity associated with FGU games.

The background material was plentiful, covering general period subjects as well as legal and criminal affairs. All that and many of the topical rules could probably be adapted easily to any other set covering the basics (e.g., Call of Cthulhu). I once intended to "morph" a Gangbusters campaign into CoC, but did not get around to it. (Space: 1889 is another intriguing basis for such "stealthily" creeping horror.)

FGU's Gangster is the only other similar RPG I recall, and I never actually played it.

[rick krebs]

Thanks for the kind words and as the original designer of GB, originally called Bloody 20's, I can only recommend trying the game out. It usually is not very expensive on Ebay and the modules, created by top TSR talent, are well worth checking out.

It was designed to be simple and easy to play in an evening or two. With the right mix of players it will be a great night of role playing.

Yes, there was no 2nd edition, it was misnamed 3rd edition. Not surprising as TSR was coming apart at the seams.

Unfortunately, the game was heavily toned down in approach. I am amazed when I walk in my neighbors house and watch them play GTA. Amazing how the world has changed.

And, I am greatly honored to now be a part of the OD&D community. I really wish you all could have been there at the beginning. Great times and greater memories.

Please keep up your work at revitalizing your hobby.

All the best
Rick Krebs

[coffee]

Hey, Rick! Welcome aboard!

I loved the idea and the simplicity of Gangbusters, but like I said above, my group leaned much more heavily toward AD&D than all other games combined. I think I would have enjoyed it, though.

[rick krebs]

Coffee, love your signature, but even in the "old days" not everyone was "old school".

[dwayanu]

Welcome, Rick, and thanks (to Acres, Moldvay and the rest as well) for a great game!

It seems even harder these days to find players interested in something other than fantasy, which contributes to the neglect of some excellent designs.

Gangbusters stood out to me at the time as the most polished of TSR's RPGs, and also as one that (like Traveller) stood out in the field as somehow more "adult." I rank it alongside FGU's Bushido and Flashing Blades as one that delivered "a world in a box." The modules made TSR's later "event-driven" scenarios for D&D look pretty clumsy in comparison.

I think some of the skills (e.g., Public Speaking) could have been interpreted too exclusively as they were presented, but I don't recall that problem in practice (perhaps because we'd been playing RuneQuest, etc., for a few years). Considering how much the game covered, the general clarity and ease of play remain remarkable -- maybe more so by comparison with many "modern" designs.

I was delighted years ago to find a package deal of the boxed set and all the modules. I would definitely like to get it all again.

[rick krebs]

Thank you for the kind words. Everyone involved in the project at Lake Geneva deserves high praise. That extends to EGG and BB, who may have been working at cross purposes on other things, but who both were very supportive of the design and eager to share their data and information.

I liked the direction we were headed, and frequently lament not getting that chance to further grow the game. But, stuff happens. I am proud of the work and the reviews were very flattering. I'll take designing a minor classic, when the classic being compared to is OD&D. There is nothing like being with your wife and escorted by EGG through a crowded hallway at a gaming con with EGG bellowing "Game designers, coming through...." Your feet don't touch the ground.

I hope others do as you did and take advantage of the low Ebay prices and buy the game and modules (there are some pretty impressive folks who worked on the modules) and give them a test drive.

Gangbusters and its modules more closely followed "the book model" where the storyline could build to a climax instead of the
up and down flow of a dungeon adventure.

[Finarvyn]

Hey, Rick! Welcome to our little corner of the ‘net!

Mar 30, 2009 9:55:01 GMT -6 rick krebs said:

Thanks for the kind words and as the original designer of GB, originally called Bloody 20's, I can only recommend trying the game out.

That’s an interesting bit of trivia. I assume that Bloody 20’s was never published anywhere under that title. Any other stories to share with us about the design of the game?

Mar 30, 2009 9:55:01 GMT -6 rick krebs said:

Yes, there was no 2nd edition, it was misnamed 3rd edition. Not surprising as TSR was coming apart at the seams.

Funny how those things work out. You’d think that TSR could count 1-2-3, but I guess not.

Mar 30, 2009 9:55:01 GMT -6 rick krebs said:

Unfortunately, the game was heavily toned down in approach.

How was it toned down? Certainly GB comes off as a light game, but do you mean it was toned down in terms of game mechanics, violence, or what?

Mar 30, 2009 9:55:01 GMT -6 rick krebs said:

And, I am greatly honored to now be a part of the OD&D community. I really wish you all could have been there at the beginning. Great times and greater memories. Please keep up your work at revitalizing your hobby.

And thank you for your contributions to GB. Hope you continue to post here and share your stories about game design and role playing!

[James Maliszewski]

Gangbusters was one of my favorite TSR games (alongside D&D and Gamma World) and we played it a lot. What I recall most about it was its simple yet expansive "mini-games" for dealing with staples of the genre -- running numbers, bootlegging, etc. The comparison to Traveller is quite apt in this regard and I can't help but think that we need more games like this nowadays. The only one in recent memory that comes close is Kenzer's Aces & Eights, which is a terrific game but too complicated by half for my taste.

[rick krebs]

That’s an interesting bit of trivia. I assume that Bloody 20’s was never published anywhere under that title. Any other stories to share with us about the design of the game?

Stories, got a year ? Aren't we all really just storytellers ? The St. Patrick's Day Massacre, where in Betty's Restaurant was destroyed by a 3 gang setup, leaving 14 dead bodies strewn across the floor, the crime was discovered by a female pensioner, who just stopped in for change. And, our newspaper reporter character reaped a tidy XP sum for that story.

How was it toned down? Certainly GB comes off as a light game, but do you mean it was toned down in terms of game mechanics, violence, or what?

As Ricky Gervais might summarize "if it can't be mentioned on Sesame Street, you gotta be careful" Drugs, Prositution and Violence all had to be toned down. As the industry attempted to enter main stream retail.

And thank you for your contributions to GB. Hope you continue to post here and share your stories about game design and role playing!

Thank you for providing a forum for "old school" and the "other" RPGs. Lots of us never got rich, but I know I had one heck of a good time and met some fantastic people along the way. May all of you have similar opportunities. And, I love reading other folk's adventures.

[rick krebs]

The chronology of names was: Bloody 20s > Public Enemy > Gangbusters

[ragnorakk]

ADMIN's NOTE: ragnorakk had some wonderful questions, which I moved over to the "Rick Krebs Q&A Thread."

Go here to find it.

[rick krebs]

James, I love your blog and congratulations on your anniversary ! And, please keep your comments flowing, they offer a remarkably clear analysis of those early days. BTW, I love your Fight On illustration, as it brings back many fond memories. Greg Bell sold me my first white box set of D&D, along with countless miniatures, countless. All the best.

[rick krebs]

Gangbusters is basically "Cops & Robbers" with percentage dice. Not, D&D with "tommy guns".

[rick krebs]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5rcOCGqq5A&feature=related

[castiglione]

I never got a chance to play it, but I thought the rules for GB were about the cleanest rules set I've ever read save for Moldvay's BD&D.

I especially liked the way the game balanced having guns that were deadly but were still fun to play with. I know other games have struggled with this.

My only gripe about the "insta-death" gunshot rule is that when you had a very low chance to hit, your chance of scoring a killing shot was disproportionately high...I think having your chance of scoring a killing shot being proportional to your overall chance to hit would correct this.

All in all, a great rules set and something I've always wanted to play. I think the rules would've been great for a Braunstein type of game (I feel the same way about Boothill).

[rick krebs]

Thank you. Compliments always accepted. Credit also goes out to Mark Acres and Tom for their part in keeping the rules "clean".
I certainly hope you get a chance to play Gangbusters. And, if things can be worked out with WoTC , there may be more material available soon.

Your suggestion is worth consideration on the "insta-kill", and their is nothing to prevent you from trying it out in your game. My initial reaction is that a "lucky shot" is a lucky shot, but let me think this out further and try some playtest runs.

I am a big fan of Boot Hill, as well, including having built an entire western town from balsa wood. Brian Blume had been playing around with developing a Chicago gangster game. Well, he got pretty busy and my game system was accepted as the way to go. Brian kindly provided research data on Chicago wards. As in its initial version, GB was to be set in Chicago.

Thanks for your comments and for playing games.

All the best

[rick krebs]

Not sure where to put this, but since I mentioned this subject, I'll try here. Admin if you feel there's a better subject area, please handle appropriately.

From second edition Bloody 20s intro:

"Above all, the Bloody Twenties was designed to be a fun experience. Remember to treat it as such and have fun and enjoy it."

"There are several sections of the rules left intentionally blank, to allow for creative input by each individual referee. These rules are merely guidelines to spark your imagination to use the basic system as fits your needs best."

Old school/new school game ?

[Finarvyn]

Apr 21, 2009 10:05:14 GMT -6 rick krebs said:

Not sure where to put this, but since I mentioned this subject, I'll try here. Admin if you feel there's a better subject area, please handle appropriately.

Hey, Rick, in general if there is a continuation of an old discussion I just add posts to an old thread, but if there is a new idea I'd suggest we just start a new thread.

Particularly when you start out with "I don't know where to put this...."

I took your post and used it to start another thread on "Bloody 20's"

[rick krebs]

Thanks, will try and remember that next time.

[Finarvyn]

No problem. It's not like we're going to hunt you down if you add onto existing threads instead of starting new ones. :-) I just find that little threads makes it easier to find a particular discussion later on, that's all!

[rick krebs]

To supplement this site. bloody20s.blogspot.com/

The first installment of Legendery Locales is now up for your viewing pleasure.

[chgowiz]

Apr 22, 2009 14:59:05 GMT -6 rick krebs said:

To supplement this site. bloody20s.blogspot.com/

The first installment of Legendery Locales is now up for your viewing pleasure.

Welcome to the crazy world of RPG blogging. Nice locale... can almost imagine the door tinkling as someone walks in and Betty calling out "Whaddya waaaaahhhnt?"