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Post by dwayanu on Mar 2, 2009 2:45:28 GMT -6
Testosterone seems to smother itself. A gang of guys does not exactly bring out the man in me.
I could do without the rail-road Dragonlance module series ... but dang if the novels didn't seem to sell sell mostly to non-geeky (or at least pretty-geeky, in a cute kind of way) people.
Just an off-the-cuff woolgathering.
Husbands may excuse themselves (after wiping the browser's history).
Those remaining are invited to offer thoughts on making a D&D campaign that appeals to more than "boys of all ages."
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edsan
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
MUTANT LORD
Posts: 309
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Post by edsan on Mar 2, 2009 4:05:39 GMT -6
A good starting point might be to rattle or shift the gender stereotypes around on occasion.
Having the evil sorceress have a gaggle of scantly-clad slave boys, male versions of chainmail bikinis, female adventuresses who are ugly as sin, etc.
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jjarvis
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 278
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Post by jjarvis on Mar 2, 2009 6:42:53 GMT -6
It's much more about how the female players are treated by the other players and DM. Women can be munchkins, amateur thespians and hack and slashers just as much as any man can. My group was about half women for 5 years and it ran like any other D&D game I ever played lots of traveling, stealing, dungeon crawling and wheeling and dealing. A DM has to simply treat the female players like players.
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Post by badger2305 on Mar 2, 2009 7:55:20 GMT -6
It's much more about how the female players are treated by the other players and DM. Women can be munchkins, amateur thespians and hack and slashers just as much as any man can. My group was about half women for 5 years and it ran like any other D&D game I ever played lots of traveling, stealing, dungeon crawling and wheeling and dealing. A DM has to simply treat the female players like players. Yeah, I almost agree with you about this - except for the last bit. Seems to me there is also the nature of the setting, too. If the setting reinforces gender stereotypes in gameplay, that might be a problem for some people. (Though that may be exactly what some people want, i.e. "If there's any girls there...!") Blah. I don't want this thread to devolve into "hetero-normative, sublimated patriarchal fantasizing" vs. "d**n liberal utopian denaturing of historical conditions" tired back-and-forth I've seen elsewhere. JJarvis - you are right - women can and do game in all the same sorts of ways as male gamers do. So what's a referee to do, if they want to avoid some of the things that drive some women away? |
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edsan
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
MUTANT LORD
Posts: 309
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Post by edsan on Mar 2, 2009 8:05:09 GMT -6
"hetero-normative, sublimated patriarchal fantasizing" vs. "d**n liberal utopian denaturing of historical conditions" If someone wrote a book with this title they would probably make millions riding the local psychology lecture tour. |
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Post by chgowiz on Mar 2, 2009 8:54:18 GMT -6
My wife enjoys more interpersonal stuff - she cares about the hirelings/henchmen (although it could be just to create her own band of minions...) She also does enjoy the battle and the puzzle solving.
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Post by coffee on Mar 2, 2009 10:38:06 GMT -6
JJarvis - you are right - women can and do game in all the same sorts of ways as male gamers do. So what's a referee to do, if they want to avoid some of the things that drive some women away? Talk to them. Ask your players (and not just the women, but the men too) about what they want and don't want in the game. And then respect that. Some players want to be pushed outside their comfort zone; others will get up and walk away from your table, never to return. Talking to them is the way to set up the group's social contract. Once you have that, you should be good to go. |
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Bard
Level 3 Conjurer
The dice never lie.
Posts: 87
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Post by Bard on Mar 7, 2009 15:45:06 GMT -6
My post will be purely philosophical, I won't offer any substance.
But I was thinking on this male/female ratio in roleplaying. There is talk about all male groups and males/females of x/y ratio. But the x never zero. Are there all girl rpg groups? Any rpg, not just d&d...
Isn't the thing is that the girls are not there because of the game, but because the male participants? So, if you want more girls in your game, you shouldn't put new things in it, but you yourself should became more of a ladies man or something along the line. Maybe just invite more girls, and if they find the players good company, then they will enjoy the game too...
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Post by dwayanu on Mar 8, 2009 2:44:06 GMT -6
There seem to be very few females in the hobby at all, which might be chalked up to its focus on genres of generally more masculine interest. I can't really stereotype those I've encountered. I've read that couples tend be bad news at the table, and my experience seems to confirm that.
However, I have noticed that a mixed group of players -- as far as I recall, I've had only one of all females, and FWIW they were totally hack-and-slash -- seems to bring out better play. A range of ages is also good, but also easier to get.
So, basically I (having only males on hand) consider the lady gamer especially worth attracting -- but supply and demand and all that, you know!
"A good campaign will attract good players" is obvious, and this latest one is still in an awkward early stage. I'm recruiting from a pool of dedicated 3E/4E players, and sessions for those systems take priority in already hard-to-synchronize schedules. Session by infrequent session, we're finding out whose cup of tea this is.
Supposing that eventually there's an established appeal for gamers more generally, I wonder whether there's any other quality that might enhance the chances of going beyond an all-male group -- especially in terms of what might be advertised on a game-shop bulletin board (rather than depending on word of mouth).
I'm not sure it's all that much especially to the point, but I've not invited any of the juvenile-humor enthusiasts or "babe watchers" to the table. Friday night sessions at a games shop with a view of folks going to and from the night club next door pretty well brought home how distracting they can be.
This topic might get a lot of responses at Dragonsfoot or EnWorld, but quantity isn't necessarily more quality. I appreciate all the offerings so far, and hope for more.
I thank you all!
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Post by Finarvyn on Mar 8, 2009 8:37:15 GMT -6
My wife enjoys more interpersonal stuff - she cares about the hirelings/henchmen (although it could be just to create her own band of minions...) She also does enjoy the battle and the puzzle solving. My experience has been much the same. For 30 years, most of my games have included some number of female gamers. Back "in the day" they were friends and girlfriends of friends. Now they are my wife and daughter and sister. Females simply look at gaming differently. 1. They tend to be more "motivation" driven rather than goal driven. By this I mean they are more likely to ask why rather than what. 2. They would rather talk to a monster rather than kill it. 3. They are more into solving puzzles than killing things. 4. In general they seem to be more into spells than swords. 5. They like cool fantastic creatures like dragons and aren't so impressed with orcs. In many ways girls are "better" gamers because they are always questioning things, whereas guys often fall into the "if it's there we're supposed to kill it" trap. If I set up an all-out battle for a scenario my guys will love it and the girls will hate it. Just my observations. |
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Post by geoffrey on Mar 8, 2009 9:49:35 GMT -6
Lately I've been pondering novel ways for a DM to do deities in his campaign. I wanted something different than polytheism or the worship of the God of Abraham. One thought that occurred to me was ancestor worship. The other was the worship of...
The White Goddess (i. e., the deity postulated by Robert Graves in his work of the same title)
The White Goddess would be statless, since she is omnipotent.
While the White Goddess would be the only real deity, she would be worshipped by all alignments under a variety of aspects or avatars. Her three main aspects, according to Robert Graves, are:
1. virgin
2. mother and/or harlot
3. old crone
Of course, any aspect of femininity whatsoever could be an aspect of the White Goddess, thus her openness to all alignments.
Read Robert Graves's novel The Golden Fleece (retitled Hercules, My Shipmate in the U. S.). It is a novelization of the quest of Jason and the Argonauts, and it presents cultures in which the female clerics of the Goddess are the ones in charge.
It seems to me that such a campaign background (matriarchal cultures and a single deity--the White Goddess) might be a draw for female gamers. Before play even began, there would be no doubt whatsoever that the female role wouldn't be to cower half-naked at the feet of Conan so he can rescue her in exchange for sex.
With female clerics being THE most powerful character type in such a campaign, I can really imagine female gamers finding a lot of potential there.
sources (all by Robert Graves):
The Golden Fleece / Hercules, My Shipmate (novel)
The Greek Myths (nonfiction)
The White Goddess (nonfiction)
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Post by James Maliszewski on Mar 8, 2009 11:02:09 GMT -6
Allow me to ask the question that I've never seen answered whenever topics like this come up: why ought we to make gaming more attractive to anyone? My feeling has always been that we ought to play what we like and how we like to play it and, if either of those things makes it less attractive to people with whom we don't usually play, what's the problem? Over the years I've had all sorts of players in my campaigns, but I can't recall ever catering to any of them except as individuals, which is to say, if I knew Player X liked more Cthulhoid horror in his adventures, then I tried to provide him or her with it if it were possible given the nature of the campaign I was running. But I never consciously pondered, "What can I do to make this campaign more appealing to Waldensians?"
Color me a bit baffled.
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Post by geoffrey on Mar 8, 2009 15:03:31 GMT -6
Allow me to ask the question that I've never seen answered whenever topics like this come up: why ought we to make gaming more attractive to anyone? My feeling has always been that we ought to play what we like and how we like to play it and, if either of those things makes it less attractive to people with whom we don't usually play, what's the problem? Over the years I've had all sorts of players in my campaigns, but I can't recall ever catering to any of them except as individuals, which is to say, if I knew Player X liked more Cthulhoid horror in his adventures, then I tried to provide him or her with it if it were possible given the nature of the campaign I was running. But I never consciously pondered, "What can I do to make this campaign more appealing to Waldensians?" Color me a bit baffled. Speaking for myself, my idea of a White Goddess A/D&D campaign came first, and the realization that it might appeal to females came later. I think a lot of fantasy popular with the D&D crowd might give females the impression that females don't have much place in D&D: 1. Females are practically absent from Lovecraft, and mostly unclothed and begging to be saved in Howard (Belit and Valeria being the exceptions). 2. Arwen and Galadriel stay home in LotR, while the boys go save the world. 3. Vance's Cugel and women? Egad. etc. I can see where a female might think that D&D is about boys having fun, with the women on the level of another part of the treasure alongside gold pieces and magic items. I don't know, though. It's just a thought. |
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Bard
Level 3 Conjurer
The dice never lie.
Posts: 87
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Post by Bard on Mar 8, 2009 16:12:47 GMT -6
It's an interesting question, what literary sources can we give to females, for character inspiration... I have a few ideas: Howard: already covered, but let me add Red Sonja in the mix.  Jack Vance: Lyonesse. I read the Lyonesse books ages ago, but I remember, that there were lots of cool main female adventuring characters. Tolkien: Eowyn C. L. Moore: Jirel of Joiry Marion Zimmer Bradley: Mists of Avalon |
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Post by dwayanu on Mar 8, 2009 18:13:57 GMT -6
jamesm: My "reason why" is that I have found the quality of the game improved with a mixed group of players.
That might be more true of D&D than of other games; perhaps some call for a more homogeneous group. Quality in this case is a subjective judgment.
In some previous games, I have made magic a feminine occupation. That's a fairly common element in the fiction I've read. A man could undertake it, but he'd be outside the social norms (think, e.g., of Merlin) -- as would be a female devoted to the martial arts.
What I'm working up now is equal opportunity, at least as far as character classes go. The wider milieu is likely to be of similar character, more modern than medieval in ethos.
However, my impression is that a patriarchal society often figures strongly in the fiction women enjoy. Clearly, it can create dramatic situations of intrigue and romance, and make a female character's adventures seem all the more remarkable. So, I would not leap to the conclusion that a matriarchal setting should have more appeal. (Nothing wrong with such a setting, either!)
In my experience, Norton's Witch World, Bradley's Darkover, LeGuin's Earthsea and McCaffrey's Pern have had notable female followings. I note that although the authors are female, their protagonists in those series often are not.
Norton and (more so) Bradley are also distinctive in straddling the line between fantasy and SF (as LeGuin, IIRC, somewhat also did in Rocannon's World). Psionics and sufficiently advanced technology often lie behind what looks like "conventional" magic. As with Star Wars, the question of genre hinges on "feel" and to which trappings one turns.
Those fictional examples seem to match Finarvyn's observations. McKillip's Riddle-master trilogy is so elliptical in its construction that my impression of its special interest for females is based on a very literary -- hence very limited -- demographic. However, it seems to reinforce the idea that relationships and stories (e.g., the histories that are the riddles of the title) are especially important. Family, friends and people/country stand out as more important concerns than in the tales of footloose vagabonds that seem to have more masculine appeal.
If I'm on the right track there, then it is rather felicitous for me. I find that kind of context tremendously useful in creating an environment full of interesting situations!
A bump in the road is the tendency in D&D for characters (especially in the first couple of levels) to experience a high rate of mortality. On the other hand, that's already an issue I'm negotiating in relation to the current crop of players. "Guy style," perhaps, they are eager for combats -- but at first level the range of choices seems limited to risky and suicidal, and luck of the dice plays a huge role.
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Post by doc on Mar 9, 2009 7:41:49 GMT -6
In our Saturday group we have five males and three females, and we have had this number for quite some years now. I've found that female gamers are just as likely to be power gamers and munchkins as they are role players and problem solvers, just like their male counterparts.
Ironically enough, the fantasy series responsible for getting most women into gaming (at least in my generation) seems to have been the oft-reviled Dragonlance series. The series, while juvenile by today's standards, has a great many female characters who didn't even come close to the "Conan's Prize" stereotype. One was the last true cleric in the world, tasked with spreading the word that the gods did still exist. Another went from a spoiled princess to a great military leader. A third was an evil soldier just as competant, power-hungry and ruthless as her male superiors.
Just an observation.
Doc
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edsan
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
MUTANT LORD
Posts: 309
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Post by edsan on Mar 9, 2009 8:37:51 GMT -6
In our Saturday group we have five males and three females, and we have had this number for quite some years now. I've found that female gamers are just as likely to be power gamers and munchkins as they are role players and problem solvers, just like their male counterparts. Ironically enough, the fantasy series responsible for getting most women into gaming (at least in my generation) seems to have been the oft-reviled Dragonlance series. The series, while juvenile by today's standards, has a great many female characters who didn't even come close to the "Conan's Prize" stereotype. One was the last true cleric in the world, tasked with spreading the word that the gods did still exist. Another went from a spoiled princess to a great military leader. A third was an evil soldier just as competant, power-hungry and ruthless as her male superiors. Actually that might be going a bit too far. A female player who joined my game and expected to run a character even remotely comparable to the unique snowflakes above would be sorely disappointed. I'm all for equality but in my book that means you start in the gutter as everyone else. And those three characters are hardly examples for anyone. The first two are cardboard-cutouts with no real personality kicked about by Deux ex Machina until they achieve their Glorious Fates (tm). "Great Military Leader"  Laurana? Don't make me laugh!  ;D ;D ;D The only thing that passes for a fully developed character is Kitiara. And what does she get for her troubles? To have her soul taken by a Dark Knight because she's eeeeevil.  |
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edsan
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
MUTANT LORD
Posts: 309
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Post by edsan on Mar 9, 2009 8:49:50 GMT -6
However, my impression is that a patriarchal society often figures strongly in the fiction women enjoy. Clearly, it can create dramatic situations of intrigue and romance, and make a female character's adventures seem all the more remarkable. So, I would not leap to the conclusion that a matriarchal setting should have more appeal. (Nothing wrong with such a setting, either!) I have yet to see a matriarchal society in a FRPG or a fantasy book that doesn't look like something out of a bad Italian movie titled "Vicious but Hot Amazon Lesbian Warriors IV". |
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Post by badger2305 on Mar 9, 2009 9:53:51 GMT -6
However, my impression is that a patriarchal society often figures strongly in the fiction women enjoy. Clearly, it can create dramatic situations of intrigue and romance, and make a female character's adventures seem all the more remarkable. So, I would not leap to the conclusion that a matriarchal setting should have more appeal. (Nothing wrong with such a setting, either!) I have yet to see a matriarchal society in a FRPG or a fantasy book that doesn't look like something out of a bad Italian movie titled "Vicious but Hot Amazon Lesbian Warriors IV". And what's wrong with "Vicious but Hot Amazon Lesbian Warriors IV"?? I mean, I through III were a bit over-the-top, but the "armor" was *great*! (I'd have to agree with you, though, about V and VI - those were unbelievable.) ;D Now you've got me thinking about a matriarchal society article for Fight On! - hmmm. |
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Spike
Level 1 Medium
CHAOTIC CUTE
Posts: 22
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Post by Spike on Mar 10, 2009 23:33:11 GMT -6
I thought I'd chime in here, since I've been called a girl once or twice. I remember years ago some night news program or other did a piece on why different toys and games appeal to boys and girls differently...a Chistmas toy special I believe it was. Anyway, they did a period of hidden-camera studies giving kids equal opportunities to play with all sorts of toys and found that boys gravitate toward logic-oriented toys and games whereas girls went for puzzle-solving or making-believe toys. On the assumption that females are predisposed figuring things out and pretending, you'd think role playing would be a hobby they'd flock to..but it just isn't. My honest guess..and I certainly do not mean to open up the whole old-school-versus-new-school can of worms here... but perhaps it's to do with the "make believe" aspect of the game being reduced more and more to quantifying numerical statistics as the Game We All Love has evolved toward its newest manifestation. Nor will I open up the whole ugly stereotype that we as a gender stink at math. I recall in this topic Chgowiz saying that his missus tends to enjoy most the games with personal interaction..and has a (I daresay) nurturing attitude toward the hirelings and henchmen. I've also observed in our weekly paint-and-play club that the boys get most excited about the dungeon and the badness of the monsters, whereas the girls and ladies who attend are more interested in the artistic aspect of the miniatures and the fantasy setting itself. As for how to get a female to give the game a try, my best suggestion would be to start by inviting one to play. And in all seriousness boys... try to make yourselves presentable. I know I don't like to have to bring up stereotypes about gamer guys either..but most stereotypes, no matter how cruel, have at least a tiny seed of truth in them. Yes, personal grooming and hygiene matters. As for other generalizations...I saw earlier a comment that couples usually don't work in a gaming group. I suppose Missus Chgowiz and me are exceptions to the rule..but to be honest, couples usually don't work in marriages either...and the TPKs usually take at least two lawyers to sort out. And regarding the comment that ladies as a group are more impressed by dragons than by common orcs... I beg to differ...but then again, I've been an out-of-the-closet orc-fancier for almost ten years now. I hope that does not damage my creds as a frou-frou-princess. |
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Post by dwayanu on Mar 11, 2009 1:18:37 GMT -6
A real girl steps up?
Boo-yah!
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Post by chgowiz on Mar 11, 2009 9:05:44 GMT -6
I recall in this topic Chgowiz saying that his missus tends to enjoy most the games with personal interaction..and has a (I daresay) nurturing attitude toward the hirelings and henchmen. ... I suppose Missus Chgowiz and me are exceptions to the rule..but to be honest, couples usually don't work in marriages either...and the TPKs usually take at least two lawyers to sort out. She'll be the first to kick down the door and go whacking at goblins, but she's gained an appreciation for her "minions". I think it's a power thing! LOL... she does care about them and there was a lot of sadness over the death of Nodwig, the cowardly, fainting torch bearer (although to be honest, she and the party DID abandon him in a hasty retreat from monsters...) The funny thing is, there's a teeny tiny part of me that is relieved that she didn't get zapped with the wand of stone-to-flesh in Zenopus's Tower - nor that she died in the almost TPK facing the wererat/rat swarm. Normally, I'm pretty impartial/impassive about things, but I do like my bed at nights... ;D |
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oldgamergeek
Level 3 Conjurer
I R the dungeon kitty ,save vs catnap
Posts: 71
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Post by oldgamergeek on Mar 27, 2009 8:41:34 GMT -6
My current players are all girls , so the girls don't play rings empty they play pretty much as any other group might some are more soft and girly others are not so much . some hold that Dwarven solution " I bash it with my axe " probably my best game group ever   |
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Post by dwayanu on Mar 27, 2009 22:31:11 GMT -6
Being a bachelor might put me at a disadvantage, especially versus a couple in which both members are D&Ders. A lot of questions look different in different demographics.
Spike may have a special perspective in light of her Paint and Play initiative with Reaper Miniatures and Hobbytown USA. That's a real cross-generational bridge! My initial impression is that she's introducing to the hobby people who slipped WotC's net (which I increasingly think is fitted to a moribund market).
Orcs over dragons, though? I'm pretty sure that's a minority persuasion!
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Laurana? Don't make me laugh! 
;D ;D ;D
