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Post by grodog on Jan 8, 2009 9:26:57 GMT -6
We discuss a lot of aspects of megadungeon design here, and I thought it would be a good idea to collect the terms that we use, to define those that require additional clarify, and---in some cases---to create new terms or to settle on some terms that are in contention for common usage. Obviously, simple terms like "level" carry various meanings depending on context; while those terms aren't exactly what I have in mind, if specialized uses of the terms require disambiguation, that's definitely worthwhile for this discussion. Here is a list of the terms that have jumped out at to me so far, that seem to be worth defining or clarifying or creating: megadungeon (or mega-dungeon) vs. campaign dungeon: in conventional usage, many folks use these interchangeably, but I differentiate them when I use them: megadungeon being the descriptor for a huge and sprawling dungeon of multiple levels, vs. campaign dungeon (Trent's term) being the usage of a megadungeon as the primary adventuring environment for the campaign (as Castles Greyhawk and Blackmoor were the focus for their respective campaigns) pinch point: a point in a dungeon level where movement options become restricted, usually down to one path; sometimes this is a decision point (an intersection of converging paths), which leads to discrete sections of a level; pinch points are also called choke points and a few other terms that I can't seem to recall, so chime in if "pinch point" isn't your preferred term opposite of pinch point: we don't really have a term for branching points/burst points/convergence points/burst zones/hubs/expansion points; I realized that I needed a term for this kind of level feature when I was trying to describe my " landings level"---a level which offers a multitude of continuance options, a place of where exploration possibilities explode outward vs. come together to a single path; I also think that pinch point and its opposite can apply to a level vs. just a portion of a level, too sub-level: a dungeon level that is to accessible from a parent level, but is often not accessible from other levels; sub-levels are usually named relative to the parent level, using letters to distinguish them from the parent (and from other sub-levels): sub-level 5A and B are the first two sub-levels of dungeon level 5, for example "section" - term for a portion of a dungeon level: we don't have a good term to describe a smaller portion of a level that's discrete from the rest of its level due to isolation by pinch points, secret doors, long cooridors, etc.; we could use "sub-level" but I think that usage may be too confusing, since unlike the various definitions of level, "sub-level" as a section within a level vs. a separate dungeon level seems to be much-less distinct in terms of context, therefore it would be hard to keep the context straight if using the term in those ways; "section" is also a somewhat bad term, since it implies "cross-section" (to me at least); what are your thoughts on this?? room vs. chamber: room = dungeon room accessed via doors, chamber = dungeon room accessed via open corridors sans doors (again, Trent's definitions/distinctions) chute vs. slide: I think these are synonyms for the same thing, but figured it would be worthwhile to see if folks use them differently or not? Perhaps slides take you to another level vs. chutes move you within one level?? What other terms do you think need some attention?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2009 9:30:08 GMT -6
opposite of pinch point = mixmaster?
That's my pet phrase ...
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Post by grodog on Jan 8, 2009 10:10:02 GMT -6
Ooops, this should be in U&WA: Fin, can you please move it?
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Post by calithena on Jan 8, 2009 11:24:44 GMT -6
Chutes have always gone down levels in my experience. I haven't actually seen the term 'slide' used that much FWIW. Trapdoors, stairways, etc. etc. all need describing as well.
I like the idea of a term other than 'sublevel' for special spaces within a level. 'Complex'?
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Post by dwayanu on Jan 8, 2009 12:43:39 GMT -6
I like "hub" for the opposite of "pinch point," and "complex" for the kind of discrete section mentioned.
(Complex does imply several connected areas, though, as opposed to a single room.)
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Post by kesher on Jan 8, 2009 12:52:41 GMT -6
In my mind, "Complex" implies some sort of consciously maintained stronghold, which is not always what these spaces are. I tend to just use "area", e.g., "This is the undead area", though neither this nor anything else suggested so far gets at the idea of being isolated somehow from the rest of the level...
Oh, btw, I think defining our terms is an EXCELLENT idea; thou art Exalted.
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sham
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 385
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Post by sham on Jan 8, 2009 13:29:18 GMT -6
So, a campaign dungeon is a type of megadungeon? I don't see a great need to differentiate the two. If the players wish to make a megadungeon the campaign dungeon, they can. Megadungeons should be able to host an entire campaign, but they aren't campaign dungeons unless actually used as such.
I prefer the term choke point to pinch point.
Opposite of pinch point? Dwayanu suggested "hub", which is not a bad idea, but I use "hub" a lot in my notes in reference to creatures. The Goblin "hub", for example, a hub of activity, a central place where these creatures often congregate. I don't really have a better suggestion, though.
Sub-level, yep that's how I have always thought of the term.
Section, I normally call it an "area" or "region".
Room and chamber are synonymous. To differentiate between the two seems pointless.
Chute vs. slide. I've never seen the term slide used either. Chutes, slides, steps, stairs, shafts, pits etc are all doing essentially the same thing. Each could keep you on the same level, take you down a level, take you down multiple levels, or even to a dead end.
I wouldn't try too hard to define the synonymous terms by creating made up definitions. The first person that tells me "That's a slide and not a chute because it's too short" gets sent to time-out.
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Post by coffee on Jan 8, 2009 14:50:52 GMT -6
room vs. chamber: room = dungeon room accessed via doors, chamber = dungeon room accessed via open corridors sans doors (again, Trent's definitions/distinctions)
This is the way I've always understood things, based directly on Gary's Random Dungeon Generator from Best of the Dragon Volume One (originally printed in The Strategic Review #1).
Apparently others don't use that term, but I find it evocative.
It also allows you to seriously mess with your players' heads. They enter a room through a door, and there exists the possibility of a false door.
Well, they enter a chamber through an arch, so there should exist the possibility of a false arch...
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Post by dwayanu on Jan 8, 2009 14:52:56 GMT -6
Re "room vs. chamber": What if you've got a doorway with a door, and a portal without a valve? And why are spaces with only one or the other type of access so important as to need special terms?
(I reckon they're significant for the same reasons they are rare in my dungeons, but that makes the specialization of common terminology only less attractive.)
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Post by grodog on Jan 9, 2009 16:25:59 GMT -6
Chutes have always gone down levels in my experience. I haven't actually seen the term 'slide' used that much FWIW. Trapdoors, stairways, etc. etc. all need describing as well. I figured that we didn't need to define the most-basic building blocks of the dungeon level (wall, floor, ceiling, door, arch, stairwell, corridor, etc.): how do you see those as necessary Sean? I like the idea of a term other than 'sublevel' for special spaces within a level. 'Complex'? (Complex does imply several connected areas, though, as opposed to a single room.) That's been my take as well, and "complex" has always implied more complexity to me too (which may just be riffing off of the word too much).
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Post by grodog on Jan 9, 2009 16:28:38 GMT -6
In my mind, "Complex" implies some sort of consciously maintained stronghold, which is not always what these spaces are. I agree, it has that sense of "habitation" for me too. I tend to just use "area", e.g., "This is the undead area", though neither this nor anything else suggested so far gets at the idea of being isolated somehow from the rest of the level... Yes, "area" as you're using it here kesher sounds to me like it's a region where a particular monster holds sway, rather than it necessarily being a geographically (cartographically?) distinct region/section/zone/whatever of the dungeon level, based on limited ingress/egress points. The latter is more what I'm after, term-wise.
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Post by grodog on Jan 9, 2009 16:33:14 GMT -6
So, a campaign dungeon is a type of megadungeon? I don't see a great need to differentiate the two. If the players wish to make a megadungeon the campaign dungeon, they can. Megadungeons should be able to host an entire campaign, but they aren't campaign dungeons unless actually used as such. I think we're in agreement on the distinctions: the term would change with usage and focus. In my Greyhawk campaign, Castle Blackmoor and Castle Greyhawk both exist as large megadungeons, but Castle Blackmoor has never been a campaign dungeon, since it has never been the focus for my games. Or, am I missing your point? I prefer the term choke point to pinch point. I've heard both used; what makes "choke" vs. "pinch" appeal to you? Section, I normally call it an "area" or "region" Yeah, that's about where I am at the moment, too. Chute vs. slide. I've never seen the term slide used either. Chutes, slides, steps, stairs, shafts, pits etc are all doing essentially the same thing. Each could keep you on the same level, take you down a level, take you down multiple levels, or even to a dead end. Good point. I wouldn't try too hard to define the synonymous terms by creating made up definitions. The first person that tells me "That's a slide and not a chute because it's too short" gets sent to time-out. And an even better point!
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Post by grodog on Jan 9, 2009 16:34:57 GMT -6
room vs. chamber: room = dungeon room accessed via doors, chamber = dungeon room accessed via open corridors sans doors (again, Trent's definitions/distinctions)This is the way I've always understood things, based directly on Gary's Random Dungeon Generator from Best of the Dragon Volume One (originally printed in The Strategic Review #1). Apparently others don't use that term, but I find it evocative. I like the distinction (and, in general, my tendency is to make terms more distinct vs. aggregating them), but it may be moot in broader usage. Well, they enter a chamber through an arch, so there should exist the possibility of a false arch... I think you'll like my article in KnockSpell #1
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Post by grodog on Jan 9, 2009 16:40:10 GMT -6
Re "room vs. chamber": What if you've got a doorway with a door, and a portal without a valve? And why are spaces with only one or the other type of access so important as to need special terms? I do think this goes back to Gary's Random Dungeon tables, and (as Trent has pointed out on K&K) to the boardgame Dungeon! Otherwise I'm not sure that the distinction is terribly relevant, other than the usage of one or other term implicitly defining the presence or lack of doors. So, there's an economy of description there, but that's about it, I think. Now, what do you mean by a "portal without a valve"?---that sounds like a submarine hatch sans dogs to me, which sounds interesting ;D
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Post by dwayanu on Jan 9, 2009 17:29:05 GMT -6
Perhaps getting too fancy -- an opening without a door to close it? (I'm sure I'm not the only one to have encountered the English idiom "through the door" meaning not literally ... !)
"Domain" might do for an area more or less under the control of some entity.
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Post by Ghul on Jan 10, 2009 20:02:33 GMT -6
I think of a chute as a kind of slide that is often water-carved, or possibly magma carved, a smooth tunnel that provides access and potentially conveys the seekers from one dungeon level to another, possibly bypassing other levels in-between. A slide, however, has the same smoothness and provides the same sort of function; it is, however, less specific. For example, you can have a massive icy cavern with interior ridge, and the ridge might have a crevasse "slide" down to a melt -water pool or underground lake of sorts. Slides can be anywhere, and are not explicitly "chute-like" -- at least as I visualize them. Of course, we might be delving into issues of semantics, but as I perceive it, your point is to create some nomenclature guidelines that might be of use to mega-dungeon designers, which is pretty neat in my book.
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Post by coffee on Jan 10, 2009 22:56:45 GMT -6
... down to a melthingyer pool or underground lake ... I would love to know what this word was, that caused the censor software to insert "thingy". Truly. Because I can't think of what it could be. (Of course, it's late, and I have beer...)
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Post by grodog on Jan 11, 2009 9:02:51 GMT -6
Jeff: you can fix that by adding an open/close italics tag in the middle of the word you want to break up, like this: censored{i}{/i}word where the curley-braces are replaced by brackets. (Thanks to Trent for noticing and broadcasting this before ).
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Post by Ghul on Jan 11, 2009 10:27:36 GMT -6
melt- water Good grief. Fixed.
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Post by coffee on Jan 11, 2009 15:58:47 GMT -6
Okay, see, it STILL took me a minute to get that.
Boy, that censoring software is something else!
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Post by grodog on Jan 15, 2009 10:14:17 GMT -6
Of course, we might be delving into issues of semantics, but as I perceive it, your point is to create some nomenclature guidelines that might be of use to mega-dungeon designers, which is pretty neat in my book. Thanks. I definitely like the idea of differentiating terms where they need it. So far, teh consensus seems to be (you and me aside here, Jeff) to use chute and slide interchangeably. I think that the way I was thinking of the terms was that chute would be a slide within a level, and a slide would be a slide that transports to another level. But I think sham's earlier point about that being too pedantic is a good one. What do folks think of some terms having primary and secondary definitions (just like real words! )---something where the accepted definition is that the two words are synonyms, but that there may be some more-localized/specialized uses of the terms to provide more-nuanced differences in usage.
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sham
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 385
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Post by sham on Jan 15, 2009 13:07:32 GMT -6
I think we're in agreement on the distinctions: the term would change with usage and focus. In my Greyhawk campaign, Castle Blackmoor and Castle Greyhawk both exist as large megadungeons, but Castle Blackmoor has never been a campaign dungeon, since it has never been the focus for my games. Or, am I missing your point? I've heard both used; what makes "choke" vs. "pinch" appeal to you? Yeah, that's about where I am at the moment, too. Good point. And an even better point! I missed your replies in this thread, grodog, sorry for the delay. In regard to of the definition of campaign dungeon vs megadungeon, what you are saying is essentially what I am saying...that a campaign dungeon is a type of megadungeon which acquires a new more defined title through actual play. For example, a group of players insisted on making weekly gaming expeditions into Castle Blackmoor in your campaign, and never visited Castle Greyhawk, wouldn't Castle Blackmoor then be the/a campaign dungeon? This is the whole "a Square is a Rectangle but a Rectangle is not a Square" deal. Choke vs Pinch. I've never actually heard the term "pinch point" before, but choke point I've heard many times especially in wargaming or computer gaming. No valid reason other than I find that "pinch point" rubs me the wrong way. I understand a bit more about what you're doing here, and I do agree it is worth pursuing. I would add that I didn't remember Gygax had differentiated between room and chamber as described in this thread. I've let Gary's words lead me astray before (and I'm not sure this is even the case here), BUT if something is an accepted "D&Dism" I wouldn't want to ruffle the feathers by correcting people. In regard to nomenclature, I'd be willing to offer opinions of other definitions as well. Most of it is just that "opinions", and this kind of exercise often highlights the different words used by various players that often mean the same thing.
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Post by grodog on Jan 15, 2009 16:47:06 GMT -6
In regard to nomenclature, I'd be willing to offer opinions of other definitions as well. Most of it is just that "opinions", and this kind of exercise often highlights the different words used by various players that often mean the same thing. Opinions on meanings, as well as on what other terms to consider defining, are very welcome
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Post by grodog on Jan 19, 2009 22:41:32 GMT -6
Also: "mega-dungeon" vs. "megadungeon"; which do you like better, and why?
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yesmar
Level 4 Theurgist
Fool, my spell book is written in Erlang!
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Post by yesmar on Jan 19, 2009 23:47:31 GMT -6
I prefer megadungeon to mega-dungeon for the same reasons I prefer email to e-mail.
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Post by Ghul on Jan 21, 2009 15:26:44 GMT -6
Also: "mega-dungeon" vs. "megadungeon"; which do you like better, and why? Hmm, I think I prefer "mega-dungeon" but I'm not fussed either way, personally.
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Post by dwayanu on Jan 21, 2009 16:59:44 GMT -6
I prefer Underworld, a la the title of Volume 3.
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Post by Ghul on Jan 21, 2009 19:13:51 GMT -6
I prefer Underworld, a la the title of Volume 3. Hey, speaking of your handle, I'm reading that novel by Merritt right now. Pretty good so far. Anyhow, I tend to think of "Underworld" as any sort of dungeon adventure, whereas "mega-dungeon" implies a specific species of Underworld. Again, semantics, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
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yesmar
Level 4 Theurgist
Fool, my spell book is written in Erlang!
Posts: 197
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Post by yesmar on Jan 21, 2009 20:33:47 GMT -6
I prefer Underworld, a la the title of Volume 3. And the winner is... Underworld!
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Post by dwayanu on Jan 21, 2009 21:49:46 GMT -6
The underworld (a term used repeatedly in Vol. 3) of "mazey dungeons," with "no less than a dozen levels down, with offshoot levels in addition, and new levels under construction so that players will never grow tired of it" is to me ... (in D&D) simply a "proper" dungeon.
Rather than quibble over "microdungeon" versus "micro-dungeon," I prefer Dungeon Module.
Ghul: I haven't personally found a Merritt novel any less than good, and consider Dwellers in the Mirage among the greats. YMMV
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