Rust Busting

[dwayanu]

Last night I ran a session with Module B1, and in the debriefing it was clear that all of us (but most importantly I as DM) had a bit of rust in our old-school gears.

The players got into precise mapping on graph paper. They spent a lot of time going down hallways and looking for secret doors, bypassing obvious doors. In the mere four rooms they entered, they spent a lot of time cautiously investigating locked and (I thought rather obviously) empty containers -- the drawer in Zelligar's room and the two chests in the armory. The torch-extinguishing wind in the latter got tried repeatedly. They didn't get to a room stocked with hefty monsters and treasure (which I make heftier than suggested in the module). Even with extra wandering-monster rolls, they had only one such encounter before lack of caution at just the wrong time dumped them down into a pool on the second level.

They actually spent several minutes trying to pin down how far they had fallen, as if they'd meanwhile been watching chronometers down to a small fraction of a second.

Their torches were soaked, and both the MUs had chosen "Sleep" spells (no "Light"). To give 'em a leg up, I ruled that the elf and halfling (lacking infravision by the rules in play) could barely and uncertainly make out a glow from a distant cave of phosphorescent moss. They set off in the approximate direction through pitch darkness ... not following a wall.

They thereby went past the exit from that cavern. When they got turned around and following the appropriate wall, some troglodytes were following them -- but fortunately not closing to attack. In the event, they (or rather the MUs) made short work both of the trogs and of the orcs in the glowing cavern.

They then proposed to camp out in the cave, in their wet clothing, for twelve hours. They thought they could get a refreshing sleep and then renew spells from their (soggy -- I'll grant waterproof ink) grimoires. Well, not only do I take the "daily" limit to mean just that but they'd risen after sunrise and it was not yet noon ... and of course they had no "Sleep" spell left!

[dwayanu]

Put a lightbulb over my head as I realize I've probably just seen a reason wandering monsters were invented. I also realize that an old "rule" in my head (from I don't know where) -- that it's a "bad" DM who throws WMs at a party arbitrarily -- is probably bass-ackward!

I also realize that the homebrew I set aside in favor of fondly remembered B1 might actually have been better for just the reasons I though it needed more work (too many "gauntlets" too close together, and too few "empty" rooms). Part of the problem was that this was my first meeting with two of the three players; more pre-game acquaintance can go a long way toward sorting out expectations.

I'm not sure what these fellows would have expected in a game replacing investigation with "skill rolls." Does a failed "perception check" automatically result in a character's setting off a trap even though the player has not indicated that he is actually (e.g.) grabbing the handle on a drawer?? Not in the RuneQuest, etc., adventures I recall. In my experience, you get only the same answer of, "You don't see anything suspicious."

Perhaps too much disconnection between cause and success in some such games has helped rust the gears involved in describing a character's actions. Players get used to hearing the GM tell them what their characters do!

I see a grain of wisdom in WotC's attitude toward "fun." The fact here was that the players, free to choose how they would spend their time in the game, chose to spend most of it on things that were for them sub-optimally fun. I suggested that they should make just a simple route map; that rooms were probably more interesting than corridors; that the containers felt and sounded empty; that they could always come back for more thorough investigation; and so on. If they really wanted a fight, there was nothing to keep them from moving along and finding monsters with which to start one!

Maybe down the line they'll get the knack. In the meantime, the player-DM relationship -- in terms of who is in "active" and who in "reactive" mode -- might helpfully be slightly reversed from what I would expect in D&D. The players seem basically to have come to expect that whatever happens to be in front of them at any moment is a Significant Encounter. (That is indeed the case in RPGA play, and one can easily expect to spend half an hour or more on each incident -- with the DM announcing when an "encounter" is over because that's built into the 4E mechanics!)

Adapting a line from a Kinks song, "Give the players what they want; that's what I've got to do!" There's a happy medium somewhere between full-on new-school railroading and scrupulously impartial refereeing. A fun game is a cooperative effort, but the burden rests more on the DM's shoulders.

[dwayanu]

I have considered "railroading" the players via teleportation out of the dungeon and into a more "action packed" environment ... but now think it wiser to adjust the situation in and around that place.

Addressing first the matter of getting them out of the dungeon to dry out and consider options: Perhaps an NPC delver who knows a way out runs into them with monsters hot on his heels? I'm picturing a Dwarf, maybe because there's no PC representative. The fight should showcase a bit how tactics can come into OD&D play (something I think still puzzles the "4E" crew).

One option I'm kicking around is to have a whole gang of nasties -- too much altogether for the PCs to handle -- arriving to make their base of operations of what was Rogahn's and Zelligar's.

Hasty relocation is likely therefor to be prudent, and there should a good selection of "hooks" tempting the players to bite. For expedience, given the surprising (to me, anyhow) amount of time spent on generating and equipping characters in the first session, there was but little weighing of alternatives before the party set out for the dungeon.

I am keenly open to suggestions as I prepare for Sunday's game!

[chgowiz]

One thing I've learned from my wife's solo game is the judicious use of NPC suggestions.

Example, the last game we played - my wife and an NPC just opened a door and are facing a giant snake right in front of them. No real way to squeeze past. Plenty of MaA behind her to help with the hacking, but no long spears to poke through.

So the NPC suggested they back up to the previous room, a defensive withdrawal. If the snake follows, then they can encircle and whack away. She thought about it, and agreed.

I didn't demand, I didn't railroad, I gave her some suggestions via a reasonable NPC reaction and it planted the clue. Sometimes she's had to learn the hard way (traipsing down a corridor previously unexplored without a 10' pole... oops) but I've taken 'teaching moments' to give her suggestions. I've asked her after the game if she's felt railroaded, and she's not expressed that feeling, so I may be getting it right.

Their hirelings don't have to do what they say... my wife's hirelings formed a defensive circle and she went running up to the skeletons. When she asked/demanded why they weren't following, they told her she was crazy to jump in and there was safety in numbers. Something for her to think about.

I like your NPC/hot on the heels idea. He can play along, certainly suggest some things to some players and even offer some advice after the fact if they make mistakes. If the players are taking too long mapping, you might want to show them the page from Swords&Wizardry about mapping. Have the Dwarf tapping his foot or worse, telling them about the fact that his mining party had been dwadling a few hours earlier and now they're all dead...

Personally, I wouldn't transport them. Go with the dungeon you have and make it teaching moments. If they're used to 4E, it'll take awhile to "learn" the new rules, just like it took them awhile to learn 4E rules.

Just my 2 coppers...

[dwayanu]

The teleport idea (already discarded) stemmed from wanting very quickly to change the situation, because of how slow the party's progress was. Based on the first session, it could easily take all of the next for them to get back to camp and prepare for another foray.

Your suggestion of using the NPC to suggest sound strategies is excellent. I could actually make a simple point-to-point map of the sort experienced dungeon delvers tend to use, and let the players discover how useful it is. There's a time to spend a lot of time on precise mapping and looking for secret doors, but initial reconnaissance is usually not it!

The idea of monsters "moving in" was partly to create a situation requiring a quick response. I think you're right, though, that I should go with the dungeon I've got.

The NPC can be a good source of "hooks," concerning other campaign sites as well as the dungeon. Introducing elements that flesh out the characters' backgrounds (as well as that of the setting) is probably a priority. One thing I pick up is that the players want more of an apparent "story line" than the traditional dungeon provides. The idea that whatever you do is the story, one about the characters, may catch on in time.

However, I really want to give them more clear leads to different kinds of adventure. What I have worked up so far are all really just variations on the "dungeon" theme -- although there's a different character to a smaller site, especially one with more organized inhabitants.

More NPCs with whom to interact would be good; the monsters I've placed in this dungeon don't offer much in that regard. Its location off the beaten path makes the question of who might happen by (if the players don't return to town or go to some other place with a society) an interesting one. There could be trappers, maybe prospectors. A party of travelers could conceivably have wandered (or been forced) off the road -- perhaps seeking to avoid tolls or bandits -- and got lost.

The dungeon may fit too much stereotypes both old and more recent, not showing to best effect the versatility of OD&D. I hope to see players undertaking a variety of adventures evocative of the game's fictional inspirations.

The big rough spot to get over now is the players' being accustomed to DM-driven scenarios. It's hard to resist the temptation to give in to and reinforce that for the sake of a more exciting game!

One thing I think I'll do is set aside some time for us to talk about what the players would like to see in the game, what they find frustrating, and how it is simply different from what they're used to. Having copies of Mythmere's "Old School Primer" might be handy. Unfortunately, I get to meet with only one of the players between sessions. Part of the challenge is simply us getting to know one another.

If the next session is more productive, and leaves them anticipating action to their liking, then the players may be ready to come back for more. Even one dropout at this point would leave the group uncomfortably small, but at least one other potential player has expressed interest.

I know I would feel bad about it, and largely responsible, if this opportunity to get an OD&D campaign going turned out to be stillborn. I think it would still be possible to start again with other players down the line, but it takes a bit of regular play for the full potential to become evident; starting anew is always rough.

[chgowiz]

I was just told a few days ago by someone wiser than I to "relax, it'll be fine - you're sweating the small stuff."

This seems like a good dungeon and fine adventure. If the players are used to 3E/4E conventions, you might have to hand-hold them outside the game a bit. I've done that with my wife - after the session, I talk to her about what worked, what didn't work and ideas for future play. That's not railroading, that's just an honest back and forth - ask them to give you feedback as well!

I think you'll be fine - these things take time, like anything else. If it's boring to you, then inject something out of the blue - give them a reason to explore the misty depths - it doesn't have to be anything than a nice little hook.

[blackmoor]

One of my best traps was a room that had a stone block in the middle with no treasure. No spells could detect any goodies either, It was well trapped and the traps could be detected as well. In fact there was NOTHING there. I finally had to betray the room because wit was killing far too many adventurers and too much game time too.

The worst was at a convention where one guy went in twice during the con.

I had even explained it all too an earlier group!

"Such a well protected room had to have something in it!".

Never underestimate the little things! (Me) or the players ability to mess up!

My other referee 'Happy moment' was when the mapper was killed and the map lost.

"OK guys now where are you going?"

What followed was 15 minutes of hilarious, to me, fun, That, as proper the use of referees. An NPC gave them a general direction. Another was when the mapper died and the players couldn't figure out how to read the map. Again an NPC saved them.

Usually if they stay in one spot five minutes screaming at each other a (not too powerful) wandering monster shows up to remind then where they are!

REFEREE RULE: Keep the game moving along along.

REFEREE RULE: subsection A: Sitting on their butts is not fun,

There is enough there for a whole new topic.

Dave Arneson
"Dark Lord of Game Design"

[dwayanu]

I feel better now.

Two prospective new players turned out to be last-minute no-shows, which was okay. The original group got a lot more done -- enough indeed to equip two fighters with plate armor (running 10x the old price)! The original Quasqueton levels are still remarkably short on treasure, but there's a way or two to richer plunder and they've mapped about half the first level.

The infrequency of sessions -- looking at just one in February because of schedules -- affects what feels right in terms of experience awards. I think I'll shift to awards for defeated monsters somewhere between the original and later schemes.

I started the characters with maximum HP, and already my rule (a la an AD&D option) of letting characters go as low as -2 in one hit without necessarily dying has come into play. Even with the recovery rate doubled to 1 HP per day, players grouse about having to take a game-week or so for almost-killed party members to recover between expeditions into the depths. The funny thing is that there really is no particular time pressure!

The players rejected a couple of "plot hooks," but at least now I'm sure they're not getting "railroaded" into the dungeon. Talking over some of their tastes, it seems they're interested in a more "sword & sorcery" than "epic" feel. However, the Orientalism of so much classic S&S is out and a Northern European motif is in. Also way out is any hint of "science-fantasy" -- robots, ray guns and whatnot. *sigh*

[Random]

I got a good chuckle out of your teleport idea back there.

Several years ago I had a group of players who totally 100% did not give a hoot about B6, but it's the only thing I really had prepared, so I was tempted to defenestrate the blasted module and gank them into a random dungeon.

They exterminated the Veiled Society and I haven't run a pre-made "city adventure" since.

It's too bad your players don't like science fantasy. Boo, I say!

And that's a hilarious trap setup, Dave.
Sometimes a huge trap like that serves the purpose of getting characters dead and out of the dungeon (indirectly protecting all treasures in the dungeon) rather than protecting a specific treasure.

[dwayanu]

I can take the bias against "high tech" in stride ... and if it's along A. Merritt lines then they can just think whatever they will.

It was startling how they didn't get at all what I was getting at with the association of S&S with warmer climes, metropolises with bazaars of gems and ivory, spices and slaves, temples of weird idols, lost cities in desert and jungle, and so on. I made reference to Conan's career as an example of what I meant, but they knew nothing of that ... and even said it was "not D&D!"

Whatever Tolkien's influence on the game's design, Middle-Earth (perhaps mainly via imitators) has heavily shaped interpretation in some quarters.