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Post by rustic313 on Aug 22, 2024 6:39:10 GMT -6
I've traditionally thought of fighting men as the premier employers of henchmen & hirelings. Perhaps its is because by the mid levels, the spellcasters are usually quite busy juggling their spell lists, but the fighting man has little in the way of mechanical complexity (and not much to spend spare coin on!) unless they get some retainers.
I was wondering what mechanical support there is in the rules for this impression -- does the fighting man actually get mechanical bonuses that help them hire, hold onto, and use retainers/henchmen? Especially at the mid-levels (i.e. before a barony is established). I was wondering if I have missed any thing.
MORALE & HEROES: From Chainmail, fighters of level 4+ grant +1 to morale throws for those they lead. On a 2d6 roll this is pretty significant, equating to about +10% in staying power for retainers.
CASH ON HAND: Fighting men have more cash on hand than magic-users. Arguably, wizards have to spend money on spell books. This cost is significant -- a book of level II spells costs 4K GP, and a level 3 wizard has only 5000 XP (and thus earned a little under 5000 GP from treasure, with the balance of their XP coming from monsters). This becomes less of a factor with level -- the book of level III spells costs 8K GP, and the level 5 wizard has 20K XP (and thus perhaps ~16K GP lifetime earned), but the wizard is tempted to craft scrolls, potions, etc at significant expense. Fighting men and clerics on the other hand have few similar expenses and thus have much more cash on hand for hiring help (unless you interpret clerics as needing spell books -- ambiguous in 3LBB, and something not required in B/X or any other version to follow).
ABILITY SCORES: Fighters actually are the first class with Multiple Attribute Deficiency (MAD), at least under Greyhawk. They benefit from high STR, DEX and CON in ways that other classes do not. They actually are LEAST able to afford a high score in charisma, unless they get very lucky stat rolls. This is actually a mark against fighters being great leaders IMO.
COMMAND/CONTROL: U&WA bases command/control range solely on charisma. There is no factor for HD or class. Again a mark slightly against fighters.
Am I missing anything? Thanks!
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Aug 22, 2024 19:10:10 GMT -6
I think you've crunched the numbers pretty well. Someone smarter and more observant than I will be along to spare more, I am sure. But I think that in play, Wizards might benefit the most from retainers, even cheap ones, to put a wall of bodies between the casting of spells and annoyingly mobile or aggressive targets.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Aug 23, 2024 1:01:52 GMT -6
I think you've got most of it rustic313 . The other one might be dicing for hireling loyalty. Loyalty is impacted by charisma (and in-game treatment), and adjusts those all important morale checks. They actually are LEAST able to afford a high score in charisma, unless they get very lucky stat rolls. This is actually a mark against fighters being great leaders IMO. COMMAND/CONTROL: U&WA bases command/control range solely on charisma. There is no factor for HD or class. Again a mark slightly against fighters. I don't really see what you're suggesting here... unless you're saying the charisma score is somehow influenced by the other scores (as in a stat buy system)..? BTB each stat is diced independently so high or low stat in one score has no influence on any other score. If anything, a player who gets a high charisma score might be more likely to choose the fighting class to leverage that leadership advantage directly in combat. It's true that the command and control rule (UWA) appears to disadvantage a player leading from the front by halving the command distance. That's disappointing  (Command distance might be better as a function of Fighting Capability, and it might be better if it were troops whose response distance was halved when in contact--not that troops can do much but fight once in contact anyway). C&C rules aside, a lot rests on how the ref interprets M&Mp13: which says hirelings "will have to make morale checks whenever a highly dangerous or un-nerving situation arises". Being charged by orcs is almost certainly unnerving for a bunch of hirelings by themselves, but perhaps not so much with their fearless leader/fighting-man standing shoulder-to-shoulder with them. Not having to make a (potentially decisive) morale check is one of the biggest combat advantages in the game. And that is potentially where fighters are different. |
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Post by rustic313 on Aug 23, 2024 14:41:59 GMT -6
I think you've got most of it rustic313 . The other one might be dicing for hireling loyalty. Loyalty is impacted by charisma (and in-game treatment), and adjusts those all important morale checks. They actually are LEAST able to afford a high score in charisma, unless they get very lucky stat rolls. This is actually a mark against fighters being great leaders IMO. COMMAND/CONTROL: U&WA bases command/control range solely on charisma. There is no factor for HD or class. Again a mark slightly against fighters. I don't really see what you're suggesting here... unless you're saying the charisma score is somehow influenced by the other scores (as in a stat buy system)..? BTB each stat is diced independently so high or low stat in one score has no influence on any other score. If anything, a player who gets a high charisma score might be more likely to choose the fighting class to leverage that leadership advantage directly in combat. Fair, in strict BTB 3BB, its 3d6 in order down the line. I think in practice though, many groups probably do some variation on "arrange to suit," "swap two scores," "reduce high scores to increase prime req," etc that gives the player a bit of agency over where scores end up. Even if you don't do that, to have an exceptional fighter in 3LBB+Greyhawk you now need: - High STR (preferably 18/xx) - High DEX for the AC bump - High CON for the HP - High CHA to lead your minions That's a pretty tall order. I was honestly hoping that there were some other mechanical nuggets hidden away that help the fighting man out as a leader. I suppose as you suggest, one could call for a morale check to hold the line if the leader is not engaged in melee, but that does seem a bit overly punitive and is certainly subjective. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Aug 23, 2024 17:16:19 GMT -6
If it helps any, CM requires morale checks for specific troop types to charge or stand when charged. The peasants and levies entries might translate to various types of hirelings in D&D-land.
S&S (p19-20) provides a bunch more morale check triggers and adjustments, including the presence/absence of army/unit leaders and standards. These might translate to the presence/absence of a leader/fighter type over in D&D-land.
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Post by calithena on Sept 4, 2024 10:30:42 GMT -6
In my homebrew rules I give fighters an additional henchman and certain bonuses to leadership.
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Post by Mordorandor on Sept 4, 2024 12:14:54 GMT -6
I've traditionally thought of fighting men as the premier employers of henchmen & hirelings. Perhaps its is because by the mid levels, the spellcasters are usually quite busy juggling their spell lists, but the fighting man has little in the way of mechanical complexity (and not much to spend spare coin on!) unless they get some retainers. I was wondering what mechanical support there is in the rules for this impression -- does the fighting man actually get mechanical bonuses that help them hire, hold onto, and use retainers/henchmen? Especially at the mid-levels (i.e. before a barony is established). I was wondering if I have missed any thing. MORALE & HEROES: From Chainmail, fighters of level 4+ grant +1 to morale throws for those they lead. On a 2d6 roll this is pretty significant, equating to about +10% in staying power for retainers. CASH ON HAND: Fighting men have more cash on hand than magic-users. Arguably, wizards have to spend money on spell books. This cost is significant -- a book of level II spells costs 4K GP, and a level 3 wizard has only 5000 XP (and thus earned a little under 5000 GP from treasure, with the balance of their XP coming from monsters). This becomes less of a factor with level -- the book of level III spells costs 8K GP, and the level 5 wizard has 20K XP (and thus perhaps ~16K GP lifetime earned), but the wizard is tempted to craft scrolls, potions, etc at significant expense. Fighting men and clerics on the other hand have few similar expenses and thus have much more cash on hand for hiring help (unless you interpret clerics as needing spell books -- ambiguous in 3LBB, and something not required in B/X or any other version to follow). ABILITY SCORES: Fighters actually are the first class with Multiple Attribute Deficiency (MAD), at least under Greyhawk. They benefit from high STR, DEX and CON in ways that other classes do not. They actually are LEAST able to afford a high score in charisma, unless they get very lucky stat rolls. This is actually a mark against fighters being great leaders IMO. COMMAND/CONTROL: U&WA bases command/control range solely on charisma. There is no factor for HD or class. Again a mark slightly against fighters. Am I missing anything? Thanks! My approach is to consider a character a fantastic combatant when it reaches a level at which its fighting capability is Hero -1. That would be 3rd level for Fighting Men, 6th level for Clerics, and 7th level for Magic-Users. At these levels, characters are impervious to normal blows. (Note that for Heroes in CHAINMAIL, while there's a chance that four normals can kill a HERO if they all succeed simultaneously, that chance is at best ~6% when Armored Foot strike at a Light Foot HERO, so I simply round down to impossible.) As a fantastic combatant, such characters can also harm fantastic creatures when using only normal weapons. This is a huge advantage for Fighting Men as they can wade through normals without worry and hit fantastic creatures without the need of wielding a magic sword beginning at 3rd level, while Clerics and Magic-Users must reach 6th and 7th respectively before being able to do that. |
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Sept 4, 2024 18:24:56 GMT -6
My approach is to consider a character a fantastic combatant when it reaches a level at which its fighting capability is Hero -1. That would be 3rd level for Fighting Men, 6th level for Clerics, and 7th level for Magic-Users. At these levels, characters are impervious to normal blows. (Note that for Heroes in CHAINMAIL, while there's a chance that four normals can kill a HERO if they all succeed simultaneously, that chance is at best ~6% when Armored Foot strike at a Light Foot HERO, so I simply round down to impossible.) As a fantastic combatant, such characters can also harm fantastic creatures when using only normal weapons. This is a huge advantage for Fighting Men as they can wade through normals without worry and hit fantastic creatures without the need of wielding a magic sword beginning at 3rd level, while Clerics and Magic-Users must reach 6th and 7th respectively before being able to do that. More of this kind of thing, please. |
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roxy
Flunky
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Post by roxy on Sept 5, 2024 5:54:15 GMT -6
According to book 3, only fighters can employ sages (I have no idea if the word "employ", rather than "hire" is significant, but I would rule other classes might be able to find a safe and get them to work on a single question in exchange for pay, but only a fighter can have one on retainer, living in her castle).
But this is not "before barony", so.
I think related to this, is that the random generation of castle residents gives fighters a possibility to have a lower level cleric and a lower level mage present. Mages have a chance to have a lower level fighter, and lower level mage assistants. Clerics, meanwhile, merely have a chance to have lower level clerical assistants present.
Since that is the random generation of map contents, not rules regarding PCs, it's not decisive, but to me it does have implications about who the classes can/will employ on a long-term basis and who the classes will allow themselves to be employed by.
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(Command distance might be better as a function of Fighting Capability, and it might be better if it were troops whose response distance was halved when in contact--not that troops can do much but fight once in contact anyway).
