Fire as magic substitute

[drskull]

Do you allow fire to damage monsters like specters or gargoyles that are only affected by magic weapons? I am disinclined to do that now, but seem to remember allowing that in the past. For undead, the players should prepare with holy water and having some clerics around, but magic users with a useful spell is the only solution for a magic weaponless party against gargoyles. I suppose you shouldn't throw in gargoyles without a magic sword or two before hand, but allowing a torch to do a couple of points doesn't sound unreasonable. Just feeling a little wishy washy about the whole thing.

[Punkrabbitt]

I would not allow it. To use your examples, a spectre is incorporeal and unlikely to be affected by anything material, and gargoyles are made of stone which is generally fire-resistant. I think if gargoyles are exposed to enough fire, they may get hot enough to inflict additional fire damage of their own.

[flightcommander]

Aug 7, 2024 17:37:30 GMT -6 drskull said:

I suppose you shouldn't throw in gargoyles without a magic sword or two before hand...

I am a huge fan of "you can't win this fight". Whether the players understand this or not is part of the fun.

I'm with Punkrabbitt — fire (normal) does not cause damage to specters or gargoyles etc; magic fire, though, I'd say yeah.

[jamesmishler]

With wraiths and spectres, if you go with Tolkien, fire can destroy their shrouds, which enable them to affect the physical world.

I'd say if you can do half their hit points in fire damage (or other damage that would specifically destroy their shrouds, such as the mighty wave at the crossings), they become fully insubstantial, and unable to attack until they acquire new shrouds (as from any recent grave).

[drskull]

Aug 8, 2024 16:35:54 GMT -6 jamesmishler said:

With wraiths and spectres, if you go with Tolkien, fire can destroy their shrouds, which enable them to affect the physical world.

I'd say if you can do half their hit points in fire damage (or other damage that would specifically destroy their shrouds, such as the mighty wave at the crossings), they become fully insubstantial, and unable to attack until they acquire new shrouds (as from any recent grave).

That's cool, I like it! Still out of luck with gargoyles.

[Desparil]

I'd expect fire to work on wights - at least the corporeal variety from Monster Manual and beyond, see above for the wraith-like version present in Chainmail - and also vampires and lycanthropes.

[hamurai]

I wouldn't allow it. Not all fights can be won and especially inexperienced characters should know when to run for their lives.

If you want a means for players to be able to go against such magic-only monsters, you might allow them to buy some magic weapon oil which allows some strikes with a weapon to count as a magic weapon. That way, you still take away some of the PC's resources (GP) in exchange for the ability to fight these monsters.

[waysoftheearth]

Agree with hamurai.
Also, great hook for players to seek out the old priest or hermit-druid to bless their weapons, or find that lost Bone of Saint Nugmug, so they can take it to the gargoyles. That's what campaigns are made of!

[rayotus]

I try to look for "reasons." So something that might hurt stone? Wow. Uh, could it be shattered by a loud noise? Probably not unless it's crystaline. Fire, nah. Ice - yeah if you can get it in the stone cracks. But maybe ... let's go back to sound ... do gargoyles hate bells? What about a loud church bell? That would seem to be an interesting way to hurt them (more like drive them off). Like being placed on a church is part of their punishment that they have to hear the church bells. LOL. A good fall would do it probably.

Anyway, all monsters ought to have some kind of weakness, no matter how obscure. Hit those in-game libraries, PCs!

[bat]

Aug 9, 2024 0:36:27 GMT -6 hamurai said:

I wouldn't allow it. Not all fights can be won and especially inexperienced characters should know when to run for their lives.

If you want a means for players to be able to go against such magic-only monsters, you might allow them to buy some magic weapon oil which allows some strikes with a weapon to count as a magic weapon. That way, you still take away some of the PC's resources (GP) in exchange for the ability to fight these monsters.

Or even better, they think the oil they spent gold on will grant them a few magical hits. The slippery salesman takes a moment to ponder how they fared as the gargoyle laughs maniacally.