tom
Level 2 Seer
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Post by tom on Jun 28, 2024 13:51:47 GMT -6
Hi everyone ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) I have a question that I'd be very interested in finding the answer to and thought perhaps someone on this forum may have the answer! I've been thinking about marching orders in D&D. I took it for granted that somewhere in the OD&D rulebooks there would be some mention of the concept, but there isn't... and I've had a studious look at many zine articles written by Gary but still can't find any mention of it... So the question I have is, does anyone know when the concept of asking for an order of march first appeared in D&D? I have a feeling it may be module B1 written by Mike Carr, but I'm wondering if there was an earlier reference.
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yesmar
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
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Post by yesmar on Jun 28, 2024 17:12:54 GMT -6
So the question I have is, does anyone know when the concept of asking for an order of march first appeared in D&D? I have a feeling it may be module B1 written by Mike Carr, but I'm wondering if there was an earlier reference. The Dungeons & Dragons Game Reference Sheet (with a 1976 TSR copyright) has a MARCH ORDER section with 3 rows of 3 blank lines (ostensibly for character names/numbers). I don’t know of any other references to marching order offhand, but that’s not to say that they don’t exist.
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tom
Level 2 Seer
Posts: 44
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Post by tom on Jun 29, 2024 0:13:16 GMT -6
That's interesting. In AD&D (I believe) there was something about up to 3 characters max in a 10' space (if they had short weapons). I know this is only a reference sheet but it suggests in 1976 players may have approached this in a much more abstract way, i.e. no more than 12 characters on a dungeon delve, keeping a single formation of 3 abreast max throughout.
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Post by hamurai on Jul 3, 2024 13:24:28 GMT -6
In AD&D (I believe) there was something about up to 3 characters max in a 10' space (if they had short weapons). That's also in B1: In Search of the Unknown. In 10' corridors, normally it's 2 characters side by side, or 3 with short weapons like daggers, hand axes and similar.
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yesmar
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
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Fool, my spell book is written in Erlang!
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Post by yesmar on Jul 3, 2024 21:59:23 GMT -6
Relevant passage from Vol. 3 (p. 12): “There can be places where 300 Hobgoblins dwell, but how many can come abreast down a typical passage in the dungeons? Allow perhaps 3 in a ten foot wide passage, and the balance will either be behind the front rank or fanning out to come upon the enemy by other routes. The most fearsome man or monster can be overwhelmed by sheer numbers of smaller/weaker creatures provided the latter are able to close!”
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Post by tombowings on Jul 3, 2024 22:38:13 GMT -6
An except from Empire of the Petal Throne (1975): ![](https://i.ibb.co/Jnmrryg/image.png)
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yesmar
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
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Fool, my spell book is written in Erlang!
Posts: 217
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Post by yesmar on Jul 3, 2024 22:50:17 GMT -6
Relatedly, GREYHAWK p. 15 specifies space requirements for several weapons. My favorite of these restrictions is pikes and pole arms “not [being] usable in dungeons as a general rule due to length.”
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Post by Zenopus on Jul 4, 2024 11:11:27 GMT -6
Holmes Basic, July 1977, has the following in the "Dungeon Mastering As a Fine Art" section: This is all in the Holmes manuscript word-for-word, so was written by Holmes (and finished before Feb 1977). It's not surprising because he was a big fan of using miniatures in his games (he mentions minis at least five other times in the published rulebook). He uses the term "battle order" rather than "marching order" but with the reference to movement it's clear he's talking about the same thing. On page 20, in the section of Combat, there's also: The 2-3 per 10 feet here is presumably derived from the Vol 3 guidance and the Greyhawk weapon length restrictions quoted by yesmar above. Also, this was the year before the module B1, so the guidance in there was probably building on this.
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Post by Zenopus on Jul 4, 2024 11:21:40 GMT -6
So the question I have is, does anyone know when the concept of asking for an order of march first appeared in D&D? I have a feeling it may be module B1 written by Mike Carr, but I'm wondering if there was an earlier reference. The Dungeons & Dragons Game Reference Sheet (with a 1976 TSR copyright) has a MARCH ORDER section with 3 rows of 3 blank lines (ostensibly for character names/numbers). I don’t know of any other references to marching order offhand, but that’s not to say that they don’t exist. For anyone interested, you can see a copy of this Reference Sheet here: tomeoftreasures.com/tot_dnd/miscellaneous/1975_gamesheet.htmI've also seen a version with a 1975 copyright date. They were apparently only used internally at TSR, and are vanishingly rare, so probably not much direct influence outside of TSR, but definitely a piece of puzzle in how these ideas originated and then slowly promulgated outwards to the community.
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