Weights, Measures and Numismatics

[DungeonDevil]

Diving down the rabbit-hole of trying to define the cubit (a considerable headache!), has made me wonder if any RPGers take the time to employ traditional concepts of mensuration and coinage. Most of our D&D lit uses Imperial measurements (feet, yards, leagues), and (oddly) Advanced Fighting Fantasy uses (surprisingly modern) metric. In my own RPG, Meadows & Megaliths, I propose the standard monetary system of cp/sp/gp, but also offer a more realistic (and consequently more complicated) Central European model, which, I'm sure, most players would not want to use because of that added layer of granularity. What does the typical OD&D Dungeon Master do? Are these matters fiddly-bits best left alone?

[Finarvyn]

(1) I like to hand-wave a lot of the encumbrance stuff. In general, the less we define length or mass or time the smoother the game seems to run.

(2) I also like the general CP-SP-GP coinage. Adding in additional coins adds to the realism, but my players aren't into that side of realism. They tend to convert everything into SP or GP and stick to that.

(3) As to Advanced Fighting Fantasy using "(surprisingly modern) metric" I might point out that when I was in middle school and high school in the late 1970's we were taught that the US converting from English to metric units would be happening at any point. As such, we were taught all sorts of conversions from one system to the other. No surprise to me that an RPG from that era would be "cutting edge" and going metric.

[Parzival]

Coinage: BECMI Standard 100 cp = 10 sp = 1 gp = 2 ep = 1/5 pp

A cubit is 18”, (or half a yard) if I were to use it, which I don’t. As the old Cosby Noah routine went, “Excuse me, Lord? What’s a cubit?”

Encumbrance: I go with standard for BECMI, though I’ve considered changing this so that an actual coin only masses 1/10 cn, rather than 1/10 lb. Makes money easy to carry (and somewhat more realistic for pocket cash), but that’s all. (Actual historic coinage falls into this range; some are even 1/50 lb.!)

Off the top of my head, it might be simpler just to rule that a purse (tied to the belt) can carry 100 cn in coins with no encumbrance effect, and a belt pouch 200 cn in coin with no encumbrance effect— and yes, one of each can be worn. This allows for PCs to actually purchase the various items they need in town without carrying obvious money sacks around. (Inflation is bad in D&D, but not that bad.)

[talysman]

I find that using measurements is easy if I don't worry about them being exact. Sure, if you're running a business, doing science, or physically making something, it makes a difference if you use yards vs. meters, for example. But in a game, you can pretty much ignore the 3+ inch difference. So you might as well use the inexact ancient measurements based on estimates.

I use paces for distance traveled in combat and leagues for long-distance travel. I use fathoms for dungeon depth. I use cubits for object measurements, and assume a human is four cubits or one fathom high. Dwarves are three cubits, halflings two.

[hamurai]

We usually don't bother with any of the old conversions. Being from Germany, we are used to convert imperial measures in our RPGs (tabletop games mostly use imperial rulers anyway), but not any really exact conversions. Like Fin, we hand-eave a lot of encumbrance, traveling time etc., unless we specifically play "such a game" where these things are crucial to the experience.

One of our DMs, though, he's a history geek and he likes to present all sorts of historic coinage and measures when he runs Ars Magica or Hârnmaster. We go along with it, but personally, I don't think it's necessary. It's a fun piece of knowledge, but nothing that will stick in my brain forever.

[Punkrabbitt]

I love doing things like that; my players universally hated it.

Regarding learning the metric system in the USA in the 70s, I went for it hook, line, and sinker. I bought into the hype of "converting any day now" so heavily that I didn't bother learning the Imperial system. That made it very easy to play Traveller, but I was so proficient with the metric system that the other players couldn't keep up. I finally got around to learning the Imperial system in my late teens and chalked the whole experience up to "Public Education Lied To Me Again."

[ThrorII]

Jan 6, 2024 9:36:16 GMT -6 Parzival said:

As the old Cosby Noah routine went, “Excuse me, Lord? What’s a cubit?”

"Riiiiiiight......"

[ThrorII]

We use the standard B/X 1 gp = 10 sp = 100 cp, 10 coins to the pound.
Is it realistic? No. Is it easy for a game? Yes.
I've done realistic coin values (1 lb. silver = 1 ounce gold in value, 1 lb. silver = 240 coins. My players hated it, and it added nothing to the game for them.

[DungeonDevil]

Jan 11, 2024 16:50:16 GMT -6 Punkrabbitt said:

Regarding learning the metric system in the USA in the 70s, I went for it hook, line, and sinker.

The 1970s furor over the upcoming "Conversion" I remember clearly in grammar school, but by early middle school in the early 80s, I assume the government mandate was rescinded with a resigned whimper. However, metric has made some modest inroads into the U.S. (liters of soda-pop, for example , and even in wargaming, figures are usually described in terms of millimeters, not inches or fractions thereof.

[geoffrey]

Side-note: In real life I use cubits and spans all the time, since I take my hands and arms with me everywhere I go without fail.

cubit = the length from my elbow to the tip of my longest outstretched finger

span = the length from the tip of my thumb to the tip of my pinkie when I spread my fingers as wide as they'll go

Wife: "Geof, will this yard sale table fit in our office?"

Me: "Indeed it will! I just measured it, and it is about 4 cubits and 1 span long."

[talysman]

Jan 12, 2024 10:19:31 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Side-note: In real life I use cubits and spans all the time, since I take my hands and arms with me everywhere I go without fail.

Exactly. We don't need to know exact measurements for a game. We just need to know how big things are compared to something we know.

Edit to Add: And in terms of coins, since different coins from different kingdoms are different sizes, it probably makes more sense to give weights rather than number of coins and skip the conversion. I'm really tempted to just give treasure amounts in purses, bags, sacks, and chests.

[Deleted]

Jan 12, 2024 17:32:20 GMT -6 talysman said:

Jan 12, 2024 10:19:31 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Side-note: In real life I use cubits and spans all the time, since I take my hands and arms with me everywhere I go without fail.

Exactly. We don't need to know exact measurements for a game. We just need to know how big things are compared to something we know.

Edit to Add: And in terms of coins, since different coins from different kingdoms are different sizes, it probably makes more sense to give weights rather than number of coins and skip the conversion. I'm really tempted to just give treasure amounts in purses, bags, sacks, and chests.

And pouches. Don't forget pouches!

[Porphyre]

As a french, I always use metric system, and always convert the distances from published modules/adventures. 


"Tell him we already use metric system!"

I use the 1gp=10sp=100 cp conversion. But Players never care for copper. An electrum piece is 1/2gp and 5sp in value, but I stated in my campaign that Electrum is considered "sacred" and only use by temples. Players can use Electrum to pay for Healing spells and Holy items, but otherwise it isn't accepted in civilan trading (I initially didn't use electrum, so I somewhat "retconned" this, and I figured it added a little flavor). 

For encumerance, I handwave this with: "you can't carry more items than your Strengh score", so the maximum money that a character can carry is the content of a belt purse (300 coins). If they want to hold a big bag of cash (1,500 coins), they can carry it as one item but must use two hands and can't do anything else . 

[howandwhy99]

My memories from way back are about how figuring the world out was a defining feature of early play, by which I mean one of the activities groups engage in during early campaign sessions. That includes measuring and terminology. The players are the ones early on, and all throughout the campaign, who determine through play how they want the world described to them. Initially the DM wouldn't tell them measures to describe the world, but appearances like "a way's off", "later today before dark", or "the corridor turns ahead". Players could count their paces and ask for uniform distances relayed that way, "You are 26 steps away from the stairs ahead". This could easily be transferred into measurements the players prefer (metric or imperial). "You're torchlight reveals up to 40 feet away a room larger than you can light", and "You closed to within 150 yards of their archers". This could be done by walking a set number of paces (50?) and then heel-to-toe measuring "feet", so distances could be eyeballed. The DM might say "you're still counting the feet" when trying to judge distances outside so you might tell them to use yards, or parts of a mile for intance (a distance you would also need to measure out -- to your own choice of length!)

So what I'm saying is, the players are the one's who determine the description of the campaign world when all else is equal. It is an act of players gaming and so a kind of reward for good play.

I believe there were people who wanted to emulate a historical period more than using recognizable terms and imaginings known to the group, but it's a bit like preferring to game in Middle English when you don't know it. Cubits and spans are easy measurements for players with what's on hand, but I personally get lost in the larger descriptions "The cavern ceiling rises at least 20 cubits overhead".

As a side note,

Dangerous Journeys is at least partly famous for using archaic measurements. But I believe it had good intentions for game mechanical simplicity.
- Furlong = 220 yards (660 feet) = bow shot distance
- Chain = 66 feet = (I believe the distance units use attract a melee) --> 1/10 of a Furlong & 4 Rods long
- Rod = 16.5 feet = 3 humans tall (5'6"), so the highest you could boost your mates out of a pit, soles on shoulders
- League = 3 miles = an hour's walk

[DungeonDevil]

Jan 18, 2024 14:16:06 GMT -6 howandwhy99 said:

My memories from way back are about how figuring the world out was a defining feature of early play, by which I mean one of the activities groups engage in during early campaign sessions. That includes measuring and terminology. The players are the ones early on, and all throughout the campaign, who determine through play how they want the world described to them. Initially the DM wouldn't tell them measures to describe the world, but appearances like "a way's off", "later today before dark", or "the corridor turns ahead". Players could count their paces and ask for uniform distances relayed that way, "You are 26 steps away from the stairs ahead". This could easily be transferred into measurements the players prefer (metric or imperial). "You're torchlight reveals up to 40 feet away a room larger than you can light", and "You closed to within 150 yards of their archers". This could be done by walking a set number of paces (50?) and then heel-to-toe measuring "feet", so distances could be eyeballed. The DM might say "you're still counting the feet" when trying to judge distances outside so you might tell them to use yards, or parts of a mile for intance (a distance you would also need to measure out -- to your own choice of length!)

So what I'm saying is, the players are the one's who determine the description of the campaign world when all else is equal. It is an act of players gaming and so a kind of reward for good play.

I believe there were people who wanted to emulate a historical period more than using recognizable terms and imaginings known to the group, but it's a bit like preferring to game in Middle English when you don't know it. Cubits and spans are easy measurements for players with what's on hand, but I personally get lost in the larger descriptions "The cavern ceiling rises at least 20 cubits overhead".

As a side note,

Dangerous Journeys is at least partly famous for using archaic measurements. But I believe it had good intentions for game mechanical simplicity.
- Furlong = 220 yards (660 feet) = bow shot distance
- Chain = 66 feet = (I believe the distance units use attract a melee) --> 1/10 of a Furlong & 4 Rods long
- Rod = 16.5 feet = 3 humans tall (5'6"), so the highest you could boost your mates out of a pit, soles on shoulders
- League = 3 miles = an hour's walk

I was going to mention chains and rods, as some older family members of the late 19th c. - early 20th were surveyors.

When designing my own RPG, measurement of distances was a feature which gave me ample opportunity for thought. I toyed with the idea of using the PACE as the standard for distance, but when studying historical concepts for the Pace, there was no universal standard, but conflicting measurements for the pace. In wargaming and some military history books, the pace (e.g. Lat. passus, Germ. Schritt) was the way they dealt with troop evolutions and even artillery ranges, but that depended on the nation that published the work. Two point five feet (2.5') is a reasonable approximation.

[howandwhy99]

That's a good one. And would work well with the D&D "pace" which was well known in the early game. Along with things like "coin" (or mass) which has historical precedent too.

I believe ease of math and not hurting the DM's writing hand were why a D&D mile was sometimes mentioned as 5000 feet. Just like gemstone values, the measures of large sizes could afford to be a little fluffy when it came to a game built on the perspective (and measure!) of being an adult human - not a spy satellite, or jet airplane, or x-ray goggle salesman. -- All perspectives of a maze-map the players aren't really ever to know.

5000 feet made the game world "a little smaller" than our world. Nice, homey, with people far away actually a little closer than we have it. - But we can measure walking (and resting) times for normal humans and make our miles whatever suits our worlds. Accuracy, ease of use, whatever floats your boat.

Might I advocate,
The "Sheppey", 4620 feet distant. Sheppey is another weird measurement well known to be "the closest distance at which sheep remain picturesque" (about 7/8ths of a mile). Revealed to us in "The Meaning of Liff" by Douglas Adams & John Lloyd.