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Post by tdenmark on Sept 14, 2023 19:28:49 GMT -6
So I've been trying to make OD&D monster cards for a resource, and I'm trying to cram Dragon description on a poker card (under 90 words!). And I'm noticing that breath weapon damage is about as clear as mud. Digging into it a bit I looked at Basic (both Holmes and Moldvay) and their solution was: And OD&D Monsters & Treasures has a table that includes Value of Hit Dice and Breath Weapon as the same number on a chart.  So exactly how much damage does a Dragon's Breath Weapon do? |
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Post by Red Baron on Sept 14, 2023 20:33:28 GMT -6
Dragons hit points = age * hit dice for type of dragon.
Eg. A white dragon has 5-7 HD, so a very young white dragon (1 point per die) will have 5, 6, or 7 hp. A very old white dragon (6 points per die) will have 30, 36, or 42 hp.
Dragon breath does damage equal to current hit points, so it starts equal to the dragon's total hp and reduces in power as the dragon receives hp damage.
I'm not a huge fan of this system as it results in really, really powerful dragon breath weapons, so every dragon fight I've seen in-game has been a lot of cheap-shotting with fire-ball spells, lighting-bolt spells, and breath weapons leaving both characters and dragons dead in 1-2 rounds.
Edit: yeah, sorry got confused about editions. In 3llb, Dragon breath weapon should be equal to full hp of dragon and not diminish with damage.
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Post by tdenmark on Sept 14, 2023 22:08:33 GMT -6
Dragons hit points = age * hit dice for type of dragon. Eg. A white dragon has 5-7 HD, so a very young white dragon (1 point per die) will have 5, 6, or 7 hp. A very old white dragon (6 points per die) will have 30, 36, or 42 hp. Dragon breath does damage equal to current hit points, so it starts equal to the dragon's total hp and reduces in power as the dragon receives hp damage. I'm not a huge fan of this system as it results in really, really powerful dragon breath weapons, so every dragon fight I've seen in-game has been a lot of cheap-shotting with fire-ball spells, lighting-bolt spells, and breath weapons leaving both characters and dragons dead in 1-2 rounds. Wow. OK, so it is the same as Holmes/Basic/1e MM, I would never have gotten that from the text if I hadn't read Holmes in comparison. Thanks! |
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Post by Desparil on Sept 15, 2023 0:31:04 GMT -6
Dragons hit points = age * hit dice for type of dragon. Eg. A white dragon has 5-7 HD, so a very young white dragon (1 point per die) will have 5, 6, or 7 hp. A very old white dragon (6 points per die) will have 30, 36, or 42 hp. Dragon breath does damage equal to current hit points, so it starts equal to the dragon's total hp and reduces in power as the dragon receives hp damage. I'm not a huge fan of this system as it results in really, really powerful dragon breath weapons, so every dragon fight I've seen in-game has been a lot of cheap-shotting with fire-ball spells, lighting-bolt spells, and breath weapons leaving both characters and dragons dead in 1-2 rounds. Wow. OK, so it is the same as Holmes/Basic/1e MM, I would never have gotten that from the text if I hadn't read Holmes in comparison. Thanks! Read the section on subduing a dragon in the Monster Manual - they deal over 60 points of damage to a dragon before it gets initiative, but it still deals full damage with its breath weapon. You could also look in OD&D Volume 2, there's a nearly-identical subdual example there. I've seen a few people contend that this is just a special case of subdual damage not counting, but it's very much a minority opinion. I'm not aware of any of the books specifying "current hit points" except for a couple of the Asian dragons from the Fiend Folio, which are generally considered to be an exception to the normal rules, with most types not even having a breath weapon and having some alternative power instead. I can't track down a citation, but supposedly it's also been asked in one of the long Gygax FAQ threads on Dragonsfoot and he confirmed that his intention with O/AD&D was always to use the full number of hit points. Just looking at the raw text of OD&D, I actually find it even more convincing that the breath weapon should always deal the full amount of damage. The table in OD&D simply gives breath damage as a number of points per die based on the dragon's age category. It follows the same formula as the number of hit points per hit die that the dragon receives, but it's not in any way tied to its hit points after being initially calculated. The one thing OD&D fails to mention is how many dice the breath weapon should actually be. Of course, all the evidence points to it being equal to the dragon's number of hit dice, but it's never explicitly stated as far as I know. |
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Post by Finarvyn on Sept 15, 2023 4:24:46 GMT -6
I had never heard of the "damage equal to current HP" rule, and we didn't play Holmes back in the day so I wouldn't have encountered that passage in the rules. Our interpretation was that breath damage was always full damage. After all, a fighter with half hit points still did full damage with his sword. Why would a dragon be different?
Also, it makes dragons more fearsome.
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Post by Zenopus on Sept 15, 2023 5:10:27 GMT -6
Holmes also doesn't say that damage equals current HP. The example it gives is that a dragon with 20 HP does 20 points of breath weapon damage, or 10 if the save is made. There's nothing saying to reduce this if the dragon is wounded.
I think this idea was introduced in B/X Basic.
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Post by geoffrey on Sept 15, 2023 10:13:36 GMT -6
I think this idea was introduced in B/X Basic. I think you're right. About eight months later it made its way into the AD&D Fiend Folio under the entry for "Dragon, Oriental, T'ien Lung (Celestial Dragon)": "They breathe fire in s 90'x30' cone up to six times a day, doing damage equal to the dragon's current hit points." This was changed from the monster's first appearance in The Dragon #24 (April 1979): "They breathe fire in a 9 x 3 cone six times per day, doing damage of their hit dice times the age level of the dragon." Personally, I rule that the damage done by a dragon's breath weapon is NOT affected by any damage it took. I make an exception for t'ien lung, as compensation for them being able to use their breath weapon six times (as opposed to three times) per day. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Sept 15, 2023 20:33:43 GMT -6
M&T p12-13 includes an example in which three fighters (boldly) attempt to subdue an 11 HD, sleeping red dragon. The players deal 11 hp damage in the first round, and then 12 hp damage in the second round, for a total of 23 hp damage. Then (having 66-23=43 hp remaining) the dragon uses its breath weapon and deals 66 points of damage (it's full, maximum hp total). Edit: Yes, the example is about attacking to subdue rather than to kill... but still, damage is damage... Edit again: just reading the topic properly now, I see Desparil already pointed to this upthread. My apologies  |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Sept 16, 2023 7:28:17 GMT -6
Another important question for players is: what defensive spells or items are there (in OD&D/Holmes) that will protect against dragon breath weapons?
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Post by Red Baron on Sept 16, 2023 9:28:48 GMT -6
M&T
- Potion of Fire Resistance - Ring of Fire Resistance
- Ring of Protection
Holmes
- Scroll of Ring of Fire Resistance - Scroll of Ring of Protection
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Post by waysoftheearth on Sept 16, 2023 16:35:33 GMT -6
M&T
- Potion of Fire Resistance - Ring of Fire Resistance
- Ring of Protection
Holmes
- Scroll of Ring of Fire Resistance - Scroll of Ring of Protection
Nice redbaron. Saving throws are typically moot against the most powerful dragons, but can be the difference between life (being saved) and death (not) otherwise. The ring of protection improves saving throws by +1 (GH adds +2, +3 variants as well as cloaks of protection). The protection from evil spell will perform similarly with regard to saving throws. A ring or potion of fire resistance improves saving throws vs fire by +2, and reduces damage by 1 hp (I don't recall where -1 hp per die is first explicitly mentioned?). The ring of regeneration would restore a character to life even if they are destroyed by a breath weapon (assuming the ring itself is not likewise destroyed). It's curious that there is no protection scroll versus dragons listed, or perhaps it's an intentional omission? Likewise, it seems odd that there are no potions/rings of lightning, cold, acid, and poison resistance to combat the non-red dragon breath weapons. |
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