The new S&W Complete Revised

[machfront]

Received my KS Swords & Wizardry Complete Revised!
I won’t bother reviewing the rules, as…well…I’d have to write pages and pages on both it and OD&D and all the ifs, ands and buts. Sheesh! Nope! LOL!

It’s beautiful! The best-looking iteration of S&W Complete so far, and too long in coming. What it deserved all along, quite frankly.
I doubt those involved, indeed, even Matt Finch, would disagree. Heh.
The book is of solid quality. The satin-finish cover is lovely.
However, no matter how bone dry my hands are, every time I touch it it leaves marks, which is unfortunate.

The pages are neither the super-slick ultra-modern of, say 5E products or even recent printings of C&C, nor solid and thick POD. Something oddly in between.
It suffers from the ‘shiny’ paper problem of creasing a page merely by turning it via normal force. But, by being what it is, it does feel and look more ‘modern’ and more ‘professional’.
(Speaking for myself, if I use Complete moving forward, I’ll likely buy one of the forthcoming PODs and use that at the table. Almost a shame, really, as…as I said…the book is very attractive.)

I mentioned how it is one of the best-looking iteration of S&W so far. It is.
Having said that, I’ve a few quibbles with it and my own self.
First, the one iteration of all official S&Ws that looked the best and was formatted the best overall were the first few printings of S&W:WhiteBox which the design was done by Jesse Rothacher.
It wasn’t beautiful, but they/it looked amazing, and was so very easy on the eyes and quick to ‘access’ visually. Great graphic design.
Nowadays, the best and best-looking version of WB isnt even S&W but instead White Box: Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game edited and designed by Charlie Mason.

The following editions of Core and Complete were sadly marred by strange (and seemingly reused) art choices, and low-resolution art crammed into the books resulting in some very sorry graphics.
This has been corrected.
As I said, the book finally looks as good as it always deserved!
It’s well laid out and designed, and the art fits, looks great and appropriately placed.
Designs of the text on pages are clear. Delineations of major subjects are strongly represented by large bold texts or otherwise devision of page/section….of course…as one would expect or hope.

Having said all this… I’ve an issue or two:
In the sections for spells and creatures and treasures, the design switches from one or two columns (and I personally, already dislike two columns if it can be avoided), to three columns per page.
This, along without much breathing room via illustrations, as there are very few in these sections, causes them to feel and look crowded and confusing. They aren’t crammed at all, but it looks and seems that way to me.

Another minor quibble is that I feel as though simply upping just a point or two more in the font size would have gone a long way.
I’m not ancient at freshly-turned 49 and have good eyesight, but, I don’t find it fun nor easy to read over AD&D1E books anymore. This is getting too close to that, as the previous editions/iterations of S&W never did.
Also, along with the font size, it requires notes underneath a table to be even smaller…and that causes them to be even more challenging to read, or at least to take an easy, quick glance at.

Also, oddly, the design decision to have some bits more black (main text) and other parts much lighter makes a lot of sense in many cases (subtle bits of art), but, having the page numbers not be the regular dark black of the main texts and of a much thinner font makes the page numbers also harder to make out as well.

S&W Complete was and still is an outstanding retro clone and the Revised edition doesn’t change that.
It’s incredibly attractive, but a tiny bit more bland than before.
Also, harder to read and reference, it seems, unfortunately.

I’m so very glad the game is still available, and it will always be viable of course.
I’m much more glad it’s finally been produced in a manner suited to it, minor complaints aside.
Cheers to all involved.

[blindaudelay]

Looks like a wonderful product. Interesting to hear you mention what you do about the paper; I've found that I prefer non-glossy pages as the years go on. I used to prefer glossy.

I'll be snagging the POD when it drops, as I didn't have spare money in my "fun budget" to back the Kickstarter when it was going.

Thanks for posting the pics!

[bobjester0e]

I threw in for the KS for this too but haven't received my copy yet. :/

[jeffb]

Jul 20, 2023 4:05:33 GMT -6 bobjester0e said:

I threw in for the KS for this too but haven't received my copy yet. :/

There was a test run for fulfillment and shipping. People who had only ordered the print book as above and even then only a portion of them.

There was an update about this and general fulfillment from Matt a couple of weeks ago.

[tdenmark]

Received my copy yesterday and read through it last night. There is much refinement to the text, while arguably the best version of S&W yet I'm not quite as glowing about it as machfront. The original hardcover from years ago remains my favorite. One decision I don't understand is why the shiny paper? The paper is clay coated, which makes the book heavier than it should be, and since it is B&W there was no need for it to be. I just prefer the look and feel of matte paper, like the classic 1e AD&D books.

There are some odd layout choices as well. I do agree with machfront it should have been at least 1pt, probably 2pt larger font. The book is fairly thin, it wouldn't have added that many more pages.

I have bought S&W so many times, this is probably it for me.

[tdenmark]

Jul 20, 2023 7:23:45 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

Received my copy yesterday and read through it last night. There is much refinement to the text, while arguably the best version of S&W yet I'm not quite as glowing about it as machfront. The original hardcover from years ago remains my favorite. One decision I don't understand is why the shiny paper? The paper is clay coated, which makes the book heavier than it should be, and since it is B&W there was no need for it to be. I just prefer the look and feel of matte paper, like the classic 1e AD&D books.

There are some odd layout choices as well. I do agree with machfront it should have been at least 1pt, probably 2pt larger font. The book is fairly thin, it wouldn't have added that many more pages.

I have bought S&W so many times, this is probably it for me.

I have the same criticism of Matt Finch's brilliant Tome of Adventure Design. A fantastic book that is unnecessarily heavy because of the smooth clay coated paper. Why? Do people really love the slick paper that much?

[geoffrey]

Slick paper is not my favorite paper in the world.

[waysoftheearth]

Not wanting to derail this topic, can someone point me to the licensing info for this new S&W edition?

[jeffb]

Jul 20, 2023 17:39:29 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Not wanting to derail this topic, can someone point me to the licensing info for this new S&W edition?

I don't think there is a final version yet??? about 10-12 days ago there were several KS/email updates re: certain parts of the license, and Matt was providing some drafts for backers to look over and provide feedback (and I think he revised or threw something out completely and said he would provide another update in a week or so)

Frankly, as I'm not a publisher or plan on creating anything for public consumption, I've paid nearly zero attention to what is going on there.

[machfront]

Concerning my minor complaint about S&W Complete Revised’s font size and formatting.
It made me curious enough to conduct a wholly non-scientific experiment.

So, I loaded up the pdf along with a handful of others, and also the physical hardback along with printed versions of the same other pdfs.

So… S&W Complete Revised, S&W Core Fourth Printing, the official pdfs of B/X, Labyrinth Lord revised (2011), unofficial pdf of Holmes, Palladium First Edition Revised, WFRP First Edition. (I considered first edition of MERP, but I figured I already had a good cross-section…and I’m lazy)

What I found was…odd.

Core and B/X and Holmes seem to be just and only one point larger in font size. LL maybe two points. Palladium and WFRP seem very close.

Physical differences, despite size, stood out even more than the pdfs (though some pdfs did ‘show’ this as well):
That some had ‘stronger’ or more black letters in print ‘strength’ thus giving them a far clearer and easier to read font despite the seemingly slight difference.
Indeed, the Futura font of Holmes stood out even more so than I’d ever noticed prior.
Oddly, B/X, having seemingly a font only one point larger, to the naked eye it’s very obvious there is less space between the letters than S&W Complete Revised. But…it’s much easier to read B/X in pdf and in print. But, again, the letters are printed stronger and darker.

Since I first found S&W Complete Revised difficult due to a certain circumstance…I tested that circumstance.
I was laying in bed, with only my small, 35watt lamp on. It sits over five feet away from the bed.
I’ve never come across anything I cannot read by it.
I was struggling so much with the new S&W Complete Revised I had to turn on the overhead light at 100% (by way of my Home App on my iPhone…because just telling it to turn on wasn’t enough…so I had to say “100%”….then I could finally read it).
So…as this had led me to wonder about such….I tried again.
I grabbed the same aforementioned books in print, and, with only the lamp on, laid in bed and randomly opened them and shot a glance at this or that and tried to take in info in a random paragraph, sentence, table, note, etc.

Yeah. No. No difference.
Somehow….I don’t know how nor can I explain it…S&W Complete Revised remained one of, if not the singular one, that was the most difficult to read, etc. out of all of them. 🤷‍♂️

[jeffb]

Getting old sucks.

I can't say for complete revised yet, obviously, but my eyes have deteriorated badly in the last 10 years and almost nothing is easy to read in bed by lamplight. Some books are easier to read than others for sure. I really like the 4E D&D books for sitting in bed. Bigger fonts and generally stark white backgrounds.

I've pretty much given up on archery and gone back to shooting rifles (scoped) because of it.

[machfront]

Yeah.
It’s not just font and formatting, but also rules that I see almost just and only WB:FMAG, RISUS, FF by way of Spellzard or maybe Troika!, (and mayhaps other such as Pits & Perils), in my future.

[tdenmark]

If I was to add one more criticism, and this one isn't so minor. This edition is much more verbose, but I don't think the "clarifications" have made it any more clear or easy to understand. I really like the terseness of the original S&W. It was succinct without being overly chopped down, like some of the "Hacks" and other minimalist OSR games.

For example, this is Surprise in S&W 2nd printing (2009):

Surprise
The Referee determines if one side gets a free initiative phase before the first initiative roll. This is either through common sense (adventurers or monsters are not alert), or it can be a range of probability (e.g., a particular ambush has only a 50% chance of succeeding when the victims are alert and watchful).

And this is Surprise in S&W Complete (2023):

1. SURPRISE
In general, a group cannot be surprised if they are already aware of an opponent’s presence even though they have not yet seen them — due to hearing them on the other side of a door, for instance.
If one side is surprised, the other side automatically gets to take actions before the first initiative roll. If they also win that initiative roll, this means they will have taken two actions before the other side has a chance to do anything. If surprise is a possibility, roll 1d6 for either or both groups, as appropriate. (Roll only once for each side, not for each individual character or monster.) If the result is a 1 or a 2, the group is surprised. A party that includes a Monk or Ranger, however, is surprised only on a roll of 1. It is possible for both groups to be surprised, effectively canceling out the effect on both sides.
And here is something really nasty: If a group is surprised, each person (or creature) in it has a 1-in-4 chance to drop one or more handheld items!
Underground or in a dungeon, the distance between two groups when they discover each other is 1d6 x 10 feet. That is very close; the monsters may already be inside the radius of the adventur- ers’ light source. Outside, the distance will be about 10 times this number, or, if the visibility is bad, three times. Anything affecting visibility could also affect surprise distance. For instance, someone with darkvision will be able to see up to 60 feet clearly at night or underground. A party carrying a light will be visible from much farther away, raising the possibility of an ambush. Other factors that may affect surprise are related to terrain types — thick woods or crowded city streets may decrease visibility and make it easier to surprise travelers. These and similar factors are left up to the judgment of the Referee.
Take note: Monsters do not always leap to the attack. Unless they are on the alert for intruders, the Referee may roll 2d6 to determine whether the monsters attack if they surprise the adventurers. On a roll of 2–6, the monsters are hostile and attack; on a roll of 7–9, the monsters withhold judgment and wait to see if the adventurers are hostile; on a roll of 10–12, the monsters have a positive initial reaction to seeing the adventurers and might even be convinced to offer some help — if they are well paid, of course!

(I know, this is virtually the same as S&W complete from 2010)

[bobjester0e]

Jul 20, 2023 6:52:12 GMT -6 jeffb said:

Jul 20, 2023 4:05:33 GMT -6 bobjester0e said:

I threw in for the KS for this too but haven't received my copy yet. :/

There was a test run for fulfillment and shipping. People who had only ordered the print book as above and even then only a portion of them.

There was an update about this and general fulfillment from Matt a couple of weeks ago.

Yep. I saw that email. I usually catch up on the backlog of email eventually, but as far as things I've ordered or kickstarted, I go to first. 

I'm just feeling left out by not getting one of the test runs. lol

[jeffb]

Jul 21, 2023 15:28:13 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

If I was to add one more criticism, and this one isn't so minor. This edition is much more verbose, but I don't think the "clarifications" have made it any more clear or easy to understand. I really like the terseness of the original S&W. It was succinct without being overly chopped down, like some of the "Hacks" and other minimalist OSR games.

For example, this is Surprise in S&W 2nd printing (2009):

Surprise
The Referee determines if one side gets a free initiative phase before the first initiative roll. This is either through common sense (adventurers or monsters are not alert), or it can be a range of probability (e.g., a particular ambush has only a 50% chance of succeeding when the victims are alert and watchful).

And this is Surprise in S&W Complete (2023):

1. SURPRISE
In general, a group cannot be surprised if they are already aware of an opponent’s presence even though they have not yet seen them — due to hearing them on the other side of a door, for instance.
If one side is surprised, the other side automatically gets to take actions before the first initiative roll. If they also win that initiative roll, this means they will have taken two actions before the other side has a chance to do anything. If surprise is a possibility, roll 1d6 for either or both groups, as appropriate. (Roll only once for each side, not for each individual character or monster.) If the result is a 1 or a 2, the group is surprised. A party that includes a Monk or Ranger, however, is surprised only on a roll of 1. It is possible for both groups to be surprised, effectively canceling out the effect on both sides.
And here is something really nasty: If a group is surprised, each person (or creature) in it has a 1-in-4 chance to drop one or more handheld items!
Underground or in a dungeon, the distance between two groups when they discover each other is 1d6 x 10 feet. That is very close; the monsters may already be inside the radius of the adventur- ers’ light source. Outside, the distance will be about 10 times this number, or, if the visibility is bad, three times. Anything affecting visibility could also affect surprise distance. For instance, someone with darkvision will be able to see up to 60 feet clearly at night or underground. A party carrying a light will be visible from much farther away, raising the possibility of an ambush. Other factors that may affect surprise are related to terrain types — thick woods or crowded city streets may decrease visibility and make it easier to surprise travelers. These and similar factors are left up to the judgment of the Referee.
Take note: Monsters do not always leap to the attack. Unless they are on the alert for intruders, the Referee may roll 2d6 to determine whether the monsters attack if they surprise the adventurers. On a roll of 2–6, the monsters are hostile and attack; on a roll of 7–9, the monsters withhold judgment and wait to see if the adventurers are hostile; on a roll of 10–12, the monsters have a positive initial reaction to seeing the adventurers and might even be convinced to offer some help — if they are well paid, of course!

(I know, this is virtually the same as S&W complete from 2010)

I've not read the new book yet-only glanced through the PDF, and this doesn't surprise me.










On a serious note, Complete had a lot of Bill Webb influence, and the desire to make the game less...light...in order to be more friendly to younger DMs who may be coming from whatever modern versions of D&D/PF. This way, it's not just a ruling and/or telling the to wing everything, they give some advice/rules. I don't care much for it either, but I understand why they are doing it.

[jeffb]

I got the book and modules today.

Sadly, I have to conur with machfront. Complete Revised is a difficult book to read for my aging eyes. The fonts are not terribly "strong", and they are lightly shaded against a light background. The modules are like the book as well. Matt Finch must still have 20/20 vision or printed these for young folks. I have to be in a very bright light situation to read these books without strain. My BHP single volume print of Whitebox is significantly easier to read as is my 1st print of Complete. Let's not even discuss how easy Moldvay/Cook/Marsh is to read (but I don't want to use mine for play copies anymore)

Beautiful book, happy to see S&W KS'ed again, but it will get little to no use or read time from me. Disappointing.

Is OSE any better than this?

[machfront]

Aug 19, 2023 17:28:48 GMT -6 jeffb said:

Is OSE any better than this?

Significantly!

I’m surprised you don’t already own it, actually.

But, yes. OSE’s core purpose was to make the full, actual B/X rules (instead of an approximation) not only exist in a modern rule set, but also excessive effort put forth to it’s being a great reference,
That is, Gavin gave great attention to how it’s formatted, so that this or that thing is always on one page or two pages together, when possible as opposed to dragging on to a page following….if ya get what I mean.
Honestly, it’s a total masterclass in formatting and the like.

It’s in digest size, but the fonts, etc are very strong and clear as well as the font size.
Also, the hardback is of great quality. It’s (the core rules) around about $40 and well worth every penny, IMHO.

[jeffb]

Aug 20, 2023 7:25:25 GMT -6 machfront said:

Aug 19, 2023 17:28:48 GMT -6 jeffb said:

Is OSE any better than this?

Significantly!

I’m surprised you don’t already own it, actually.

But, yes. OSE’s core purpose was to make the full, actual B/X rules (instead of an approximation) not only exist in a modern rule set, but also excessive effort put forth to it’s being a great reference,
That is, Gavin gave great attention to how it’s formatted, so that this or that thing is always on one page or two pages together, when possible as opposed to dragging on to a page following….if ya get what I mean.
Honestly, it’s a total masterclass in formatting and the like.

It’s in digest size, but the fonts, etc are very strong and clear as well as the font size.
Also, the hardback is of great quality. It’s (the core rules) around about $40 and well worth every penny, IMHO.

I've kind of avoided it as I have both Labyrinth Lord and BFRPG in print (and have since...2008?), and I'm generally not one for slick modern production values(and prices). But I do know that OSE has slick production values with an emphasis on utility. I may have to see if I can find a gently used copy somewhere.

That or send off my PDFs of Moldvay/Cook/Marsh to one of those print services. MCM is my all time favorite D&D ruleset, for utility and aesthetics.

[distortedhumor]

Its a wonderful book, and has quickly (along with WB:FMAG) has become my goto when doing OD&D (or OD&D style) gaming.

[waysoftheearth]

I'm sure I'll have my own "opinions" on it (which I will be happy to share ) but is there an affordable PDF of this? Can someone please point me to the (state of the art?) currently most going rendition of S&W?

[jeffb]

Sept 2, 2023 9:18:12 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

I'm sure I'll have my own "opinions" on it (which I will be happy to share ) but is there an affordable PDF of this? Can someone please point me to the (state of the art?) currently most going rendition of S&W?

Here ya go (DTRPG)

[waysoftheearth]

Noice; thanks Jeffb.


edit: I edited my post above to actually ask for S&W (rather than OD&D) Doh! But you knew what I meant