The Best Fantasy Wargame System is...

[tdenmark]

Which fantasy wargame is the best? Why?

[waysoftheearth]

It depends a lot on what your criteria for "best" are. Commercial revenue, years in production, tables at cons, most players, most fan sites, best miniatures support, fastest battle play, best campaign rules, best genre support, best giant robots, etc. There are many different lenses one could view the field through. I think it's fair to say we're looking at a pretty narrow list here.

Here's just a few of the popular contenders....

ageofminiatures.com/best-skirmish-games/
www.wargamer.com/best-miniature-wargames
www.dicebreaker.com/mechanics/skirmish/best-games/best-skirmish-games-wargaming

[waysoftheearth]

Swords & Spells
Warriors of Mars?

[jeffb]

Other.

4E.




I'm mostly kidding.

However, I did not come to OD&D in the 70s through wargaming channels, and despite my efforts BITD to get into various AH, SPI, and other wargames (I owned the original WB WH set)- it's not my thing. I enjoy strategy and tactics to a certain extent, but not with the complication, scale (npi) and investment (literally and figuratively) needed for wargames.

4E on the other hand (RAW), scratches my itch for teamwork tactics- small scale, easily understood (with essentially all the rules you need to know on a card/character sheet) and plays out (relatively) quick.

I always wanted to get involved in the 3.0 era of Chainmail, but it did not seem to last long. My understanding is the system was not terrible but it was too expensive for WOTC at the time to produce all the minis.

That said- If someone said "Hey Jeff..wanna play a FWG today? Take your pick!" I think I'd like to try the original Warhammer- it *seemed* like a good system. Chainmail (original) I cannot be bothered to parse then, or now (great game it may be)

[tdenmark]

Jul 15, 2023 3:33:09 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

It depends a lot on what your criteria for "best" are.

Criteria = your favorite.

[tdenmark]

Jul 15, 2023 7:29:58 GMT -6 jeffb said:

Other.

4E.

If I'd first experienced 4E as a miniatures skirmish game not called D&D, I might have liked it. I had no idea the rules were that succinct though, my impression was it was hundreds of pages of excruciating detail.

The wargame I was surprised at how relatively simple and streamlined it is when I first played a match was Warhammer. There is a reason it’s so popular.

[tdenmark]

What sparked the idea of starting this thread was recently reading the Mass Combat rules in the D&D Cyclopedia. I've never played it, but it seems to be very well designed. Has anyone tried it?

[mgtremaine]

Jul 15, 2023 8:25:36 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

What sparked the idea of starting this thread was recently reading the Mass Combat rules in the D&D Cyclopedia. I've never played it, but it seems to be very well designed. Has anyone tried it?

I had to look that up because I never really had the Cyclopedia back in the day, but that is War Machine from Companion Set. Which I have used and did find it enjoyable. (but hey that was back in the 90's)

-Mike

[chicagowiz]

If it's the proverbial desert island, I'm going to go with Ral Partha's Chaos Wars. Although tbh, I'd have to say HOTT as well. So... I'd roll a die and see which one I'm taking!

[jeffb]

Jul 15, 2023 8:24:06 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

Jul 15, 2023 7:29:58 GMT -6 jeffb said:

Other.

4E.

If I'd first experienced 4E as a miniatures skirmish game not called D&D, I might have liked it. I had no idea the rules were that succinct though, my impression was it was hundreds of pages of excruciating detail.

The wargame I was surprised at how relatively simple and streamlined it is when I first played a match was Warhammer. There is a reason it’s so popular.

Everything you need to run your PC is on the cards. You have to understand about 2 pages worth of general combat rules otherwise.

[hamurai]

We're really enjoying Lion Rampant 2nd edition. It's got some fules for fantasy units, not just historical ones.

It's a pretty easy-to-learn generic game which plays fast and is a lot of fun.

[Desparil]

Jul 15, 2023 12:26:18 GMT -6 jeffb said:

Jul 15, 2023 8:24:06 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

If I'd first experienced 4E as a miniatures skirmish game not called D&D, I might have liked it. I had no idea the rules were that succinct though, my impression was it was hundreds of pages of excruciating detail.

The wargame I was surprised at how relatively simple and streamlined it is when I first played a match was Warhammer. There is a reason it’s so popular.

Everything you need to run your PC is on the cards. You have to understand about 2 pages worth of general combat rules otherwise.

Yeah, across various books there are hundreds of pages of different powers, but each power is just a unique combination of generic rules terms. If you know a few pages of general rules, like the effects of being dazed or slowed or that the [W] symbol is just a stand-in for you weapon's damage die, then you can easily interpret the effects of any power even if it's the first time you've ever encountered that specific power. Conceptually it's not so different from the wizard spells in Chainmail, just there are ten times as many for the wizard to choose from, and there are additionally separate lists of exploits or spells for fighters, paladins, clerics, rogues, rangers, warlocks, and warlords, so the number of pages dedicated to all of those is quite large.

[waysoftheearth]

Jul 15, 2023 13:02:59 GMT -6 hamurai said:

We're really enjoying Lion Rampant 2nd edition. It's got some rules for fantasy units, not just historical ones.

It's a pretty easy-to-learn generic game which plays fast and is a lot of fun.

There's also Dragon Rampant, which is a pretty straight-forward adaption specifically for fantasy battles. I have both games, but alas no opponent I'd love to try it out one of these days.

[waysoftheearth]

For me, DBA is still the go to system in wargaming, with derivatives like DBF and HOTT qualifying in the fantasy genre.

The game is deeply rooted in historical research with rules that are straight forward yet richly nuanced, it is fast playing, command/control and the "action economy" is elegantly managed, troop type differences are expressed in outcomes table rather than by stats/stat inflation, and there is a meaningful sense of generalship without arduous fiddling with casualties, book-keeping, or calculations.

Still a wonderful game IMHO, and the gold standard to which I invariably end up comparing other games.

[yesmar]

For old school I like SWORDS & SPELLS. For something newer, CLASH of Spears.

[hamurai]

Jul 15, 2023 16:31:56 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Jul 15, 2023 13:02:59 GMT -6 hamurai said:

We're really enjoying Lion Rampant 2nd edition. It's got some rules for fantasy units, not just historical ones.

It's a pretty easy-to-learn generic game which plays fast and is a lot of fun.

There's also Dragon Rampant, which is a pretty straight-forward adaption specifically for fantasy battles.

True, but how much fantasy does it add? Spell-casting is not in LR2, that'd be a welcome addition, but apart from that, I wonder what else is included. I believe DR uses the old LR1 rules, is that correct?

[waysoftheearth]

Yes; DR is essentially the same game as LR1.
It adds a few decorative names/descriptions for unit types and some fantasy qualities (cleric, slayer, flying, undead, venomous, etc.) but the main addition is the changing the number of individual figures in a unit into more abstract unit "strength" so that, for example, a unit of 12 men from LR would become a strength 12 unit in DR which can then be represented by 12 men or 4 ogres or a single giant, or any arbitrary combination of fantastic figures that total 12 "strength".
It also includes magic, albeit it's pretty basic. There's a short list (10?) of included spells with one line summaries, mostly just enhancing/affecting other elements of the game mechanics (i.e., prevent movement, prevent missile fire, cause a courage test, auto succeed on next courage test, etc.). Inventing your own spells by player agreement prior to play is suggested.

[rhialto]

Fantasy Triumph!, the spiritual successor to HotT. Clearer than DBA, with the additional features of free on-line army lists (for historical armies, but easily converted to fantasy) and battle cards (army-specific modifications like ambush, special units, etc.).

[Finarvyn]

Back in the day, we mostly played Chainmail, but not always the full rules set. Mostly I liked the mass combat rules from p.40 in the book because I could roll handfuls of d6's and have armies of RISK pieces fight other armies of RISK pieces. (A friend had Viking and Roman minis plus a sand table, but I mostly had RISK.)

Also used PRESTAGS (SPI wargame) as the basis of much of my army combat, since there were so many types of units outlined in those games.

I voted Chainmail in the poll.

[waysoftheearth]

Jul 16, 2023 5:00:30 GMT -6 rhialto said:

Fantasy Triumph!, the spiritual successor to HotT. Clearer than DBA, with the additional features of free on-line army lists (for historical armies, but easily converted to fantasy) and battle cards (army-specific modifications like ambush, special units, etc.).

I'd be interested to take a closer look at Triumph, but not US$20 for a PDF (!) interested. Is there a cheaper, no frills PDF or starter version?

[robertsconley]

I don't play much miniature wargaming so I don't have a overall favorite.

But when it comes to having mass combat in a OD&D campaign. Battlesystem 1e by far. Why? Because everything D&D translates over perfectly rather than approximately as you have to do with the other systems mentioned here. The system itself is straightforward to use. Despite being a AD&D 1e it can be used with most editions of D&D 'as is' as the guts of it is a easy to use chart that uses binominal distribution to represent the odds of what happens when you make hundreds of to-hit and damage rolls

One Thousand Four Hundred and Fifty Orcs Slain
batintheattic.blogspot.com/2013/08/one-thousand-four-hundred-and-fifty.html

Reflections on a lot of Dead Orcs
batintheattic.blogspot.com/2013/08/reflections-on-lot-of-dead-orcs.html

Adapting 1st edition Battlesystem to Ascending AC
batintheattic.blogspot.com/2013/08/adapting-1st-edition-battlesystem-to.html

Quick Battlesystem with Swords & Wizardry Update
batintheattic.blogspot.com/2013/08/quick-battlesystem-with-swords-wizardry.html

Recently I figured out how the chart worked and was able to make one of my own. It is not a focus yet but eventually I plan to make my own clone of Battlesystem 1e and share it. The trick was is remembering that the original chart was based on three AD&D rounds of combat for 10 guys taking a swing. So this mean up to 30 hits was possible.

Before I running binominal distributions only for 10 hits and not spotting any type of usable pattern. But when I ran a binominal distribution for 30 hits sure enough a distinct pattern emerged. One where at each 5% change of probable the central peak of the bell curve shift up or down by roughly one hit.

Plus I can see how Niles and Winter could build the original without having access to spreadsheets with binominal distribution function. Basically, you just have to do enough of the math for one of the probabilities to figure out the pattern. My guess is they tried different numbers of rounds until they found out that three AD&D rounds to one Battlesystem turn did the trick.

[skars]

I'm guessing from the list that you are referring to _miniatures_ wargames. The best fantasy miniatures wargame in my opinion is Warmaster by Rick Priestly when he was at Games Workshop. The command system is fun, fast paced, and you can play massive battles, sieges, etc with the same set of rules in a fraction of the time spent trying to do similar with any of the games listed in the poll, including its spiritual predecessor, warhammer.

My favorite fantasy board wargame is probably Titan, but there are dozens of good ones.

[skars]

Jul 16, 2023 12:05:11 GMT -6 skars said:

I'm guessing from the list that you are referring to _miniatures_ wargames. The best fantasy miniatures wargame in my opinion is Warmaster by Rick Priestly when he was at Games Workshop. The command system is fun, fast paced, and you can play massive battles, sieges, etc with the same set of rules in a fraction of the time spent trying to do similar with any of the games listed in the poll, including its spiritual predecessor, warhammer.

My favorite fantasy board wargame is probably Titan, but there are dozens of good ones.

Now with a lens of trying to include PCs in mass combat, that's where games like swords & spells, Chainmail, and Battlesystem were poised to solve but in practice have always come up short. Usually too fiddly to actually represent hundreds or thousands of troops AND your PCs in a meaningful way for a campaign mass battle in an evening session. I have memories of playing in a Battlesystem 1ed game at GamesCaucus 2 in Oakland. It took nearly 14 hours to play and we got about halfway through.

[Punkrabbitt]

Hordes Of The Things. Best game ever in my opinion. It suffers from game-specific multi-basing, however. I had the opportunity to work on the second edition of the game.

Dragon Rampant. Played in my area. Suffers from odd unit sizes.

Frostgrave. Skirmish. Almost an RPG. Very character-specific.

[rhialto]

Jul 16, 2023 5:53:30 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Jul 16, 2023 5:00:30 GMT -6 rhialto said:

Fantasy Triumph!, the spiritual successor to HotT. Clearer than DBA, with the additional features of free on-line army lists (for historical armies, but easily converted to fantasy) and battle cards (army-specific modifications like ambush, special units, etc.).

I'd be interested to take a closer look at Triumph, but not US$20 for a PDF (!) interested. Is there a cheaper, no frills PDF or starter version?

Unfortunately not in print or readable digital. If videos are acceptable, then Rod has a bunch of Triumph! tutorials here. They should give you a good idea of how it's derived from DBA.

[tdenmark]

Are any of these other fantasy wargames that have been mentioned compatible with D&D?

[waysoftheearth]

Jul 16, 2023 12:18:48 GMT -6 skars said:

Now with a lens of trying to include PCs in mass combat, that's where games like swords & spells, Chainmail, and Battlesystem were poised to solve but in practice have always come up short. Usually too fiddly to actually represent hundreds or thousands of troops AND your PCs in a meaningful way for a campaign mass battle in an evening session.

This.

[robertsconley]

Jul 16, 2023 12:18:48 GMT -6 skars said:

Now with a lens of trying to include PCs in mass combat, that's where games like swords & spells, Chainmail, and Battlesystem were poised to solve but in practice have always come up short. Usually too fiddly to actually represent hundreds or thousands of troops AND your PCs in a meaningful way for a campaign mass battle in an evening session. I have memories of playing in a Battlesystem 1ed game at GamesCaucus 2 in Oakland. It took nearly 14 hours to play and we got about halfway through.

I am not sure where the disconnect in that game you played. I have used Battlesystem 1e plenty of times. It has never taken that long to resolve and single battles were easily handled in the context of a session.

If I had to guess it would be due to the fact my games were refereed by me and the player were not playing against me persay. Instead, they roleplayed as their characters on the battlefield giving commands or participating directly. Most of the movement and rolls were handled by me.

The big issue as with any miniature wargame is that units are comprised of figures and that doesn't scale well until you use some tricks to manage it.

The thing is that Battlesystem 1e isn't that complex of a wargame.

[hamurai]

Jul 16, 2023 16:01:57 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

Are any of these other fantasy wargames that have been mentioned compatible with D&D?

Depends on the edition, I guess.

Last weekend I tried SPQR by Warlord Games, a very quick skirmish game (but I don't see a reason why you shouldn't be able to play huge armies with the system, apart from missing command mechanics). The Units have stats of +1 or +2 (checks rolled with xd6), which is close to OD&D modifiers on early levels. There are level-up rules for hero units, too, and an XP-based progression table.

Frostgrave has stats similar to D&D 5E, ranging from -2 to +8 (...ish, I haven't played in a while). Played with a d20, too. Rangers of Shadow Deep uses the same system and not mainly about wizards.

[DungeonDevil]

Jul 14, 2023 23:00:21 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

Which fantasy wargame is the best? Why?

CHAIN....wait for it.....MAIL!

It is the Singularity which led to the Big Bang of the RPG universe. From it many (most?) crucial concepts arose and diversified. It's compact, and, if necessary, can be customised.