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Post by Punkrabbitt on Jul 4, 2023 14:40:07 GMT -6
I can't get over it. The betrayal over the OGL made me very angry, and I am still mad at Dungeons & Dragons about it. It makes no sense in any rational sort of way. WotC did one better than the OGL by way of apology. But I still won't grab free 5e stuff from DriveThruRPG, which was kind of a hobby of mine, because of it.
What is wrong with me?
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Post by Morandir on Jul 4, 2023 15:31:56 GMT -6
There’s nothing wrong with you. IMO WotC has crossed a line and will never get my business again, no matter what.
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Post by DungeonDevil on Jul 4, 2023 16:13:26 GMT -6
No need to be mad at D&D. Neither Wizards nor Hasbro invented it. They just had the money to buy it and then ruin it. You're transferring your angst upon the game for no reason. D&D will always remain the child of DLA and EGG. You're throwing the proverbial baby out with the bath-water.  |
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Post by howandwhy99 on Jul 4, 2023 16:51:31 GMT -6
I still think their behavior is better than post-Gygax TSR. But the bounds of greed are gobsmackingly ugly.
They are actually attempting to purge the hobby of pre-Hasbro members. Their actions losing our sales is meaningless to them. Us not forgetting their true character is more important than dividing from them.
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skars
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 407
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Post by skars on Jul 4, 2023 17:42:26 GMT -6
I still think their behavior is better than post-Gygax TSR. But the bounds of greed are gobsmackingly ugly. They are actually attempting to purge the hobby of pre-Hasbro members. Their actions losing our sales is meaningless to them. Us not forgetting their true character is more important than dividing from them. The game has always had a lawsuit or pseudo controversy around it including between the two creators themselves. I dunno, each person totally has a right to where and how they place their integrity, so more power to you. I'm reserving my angst for other arenas. |
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Post by talysman on Jul 4, 2023 18:22:44 GMT -6
I still think their behavior is better than post-Gygax TSR. But the bounds of greed are gobsmackingly ugly. They are actually attempting to purge the hobby of pre-Hasbro members. Their actions losing our sales is meaningless to them. Us not forgetting their true character is more important than dividing from them. The game has always had a lawsuit or pseudo controversy around it including between the two creators themselves. I dunno, each person totally has a right to where and how they place their integrity, so more power to you. I'm reserving my angst for other arenas. The YouTube channel Extra Credits has just released a video about the history of the D&D legal battles and how they affected their sales (TLDW: Every time the owners of D&D tightened the reigns, sales dropped and players abandoned them.) Or rather they will release it. They release their videos on Nebula first, but that's a pay service, so linking to it won't help. Which is sad, because I was hoping to discuss whether the presentation seemed accurate. |
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Post by machfront on Jul 5, 2023 5:41:25 GMT -6
WotC didn’t care about us in 2001…or even in 1998.
Hasbro didn’t care about us years ago nor today nor tomorrow.
Frankly, TSR didn’t care about us in 1985 or so, either.
But, my copies of B/X, or Holmes, or the RC or AD&D2E ‘splat books’ were created by talented persons of various levels not part of the upper echelons that ‘don’t/didn’t’ care, so I can’t be mad at them.
If I had anything at all from 3rd, 4th or 5th edition (which I don’t and never have and never will), I’d not be mad at them either (laugh at them, and roll my eyes every bit as I did at age 12 at AD&D1E books and in high school and my 20s as I did for most AD&D2E stuff as well, yes). 🤷♂️
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2023 6:16:34 GMT -6
WotC didn’t care about us in 2001…or even in 1998. Hasbro didn’t care about us years ago nor today nor tomorrow. Frankly, TSR didn’t care about us in 1985 or so, either. Ahh, a trip to the Bob Bledsaw Sr.'s Judges Guild school house in Decatur IL in 81'. They cared! |
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Post by tdenmark on Jul 5, 2023 10:00:06 GMT -6
I can't get over it. The betrayal over the OGL made me very angry, and I am still mad at Dungeons & Dragons about it. It makes no sense in any rational sort of way. WotC did one better than the OGL by way of apology. But I still won't grab free 5e stuff from DriveThruRPG, which was kind of a hobby of mine, because of it. What is wrong with me? It's a business. They are going to do what they think ultimately benefits the bottom line. They don't think a bunch of old D&D players are the future of their product, and think a bigger market is to be found in digitizing D&D and monetizing everything they can. The OGL fiasco just backfired in a way they never expected, and it wasn't until hordes of D&D players starting cancelling their DNDBEYOND subscriptions that they even began to listen. I've invested a lot of time and resources into creating OSR books for the community to enjoy, so I was quite upset too. I had plans for dozens of really interesting genre books and saw WotC torching those plans. Fortunately it worked out, but the trauma remains. I was already leary of the direction Wizards was taking, but now I'm done with that company. Won't buy another thing from them. It is all about supporting the fanbase and 3rd party products from now on. |
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Post by talysman on Jul 5, 2023 20:51:35 GMT -6
The YouTube channel Extra Credits has just released a video about the history of the D&D legal battles and how they affected their sales (TLDW: Every time the owners of D&D tightened the reigns, sales dropped and players abandoned them.) Or rather they will release it. They release their videos on Nebula first, but that's a pay service, so linking to it won't help. Which is sad, because I was hoping to discuss whether the presentation seemed accurate. It's available now. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jul 6, 2023 3:08:01 GMT -6
The OGL fiasco just backfired in a way they never expected, ... Fortunately it worked out I don't see how anyone would continue to invest effort in anything OGL-based today. The OGL was torpedoed... as far as I know there is no longer any trustworthy legal umbrella over 3e-based fan work. That isn't a good outlook for anyone who was previously a small-fry, indy, OGL/OSR publisher. I'd be interested to understand what "it worked out" was intended to mean? |
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Post by tdenmark on Jul 6, 2023 4:48:39 GMT -6
I'd be interested to understand what "it worked out" was intended to mean? They released the SRD under a Creative Commons license that cannot be revoked. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jul 6, 2023 5:28:03 GMT -6
Presumably that's the 5e SRD? If so, then... not particularly useful to 3e SRD-based publications (including virtually all the TSR-era clones).
Or do you mean they released the 3e SRD as well? That would be good news.
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Post by tdenmark on Jul 6, 2023 5:54:07 GMT -6
Presumably that's the 5e SRD? If so, then... not particularly useful to 3e SRD-based publications (including virtually all the TSR-era clones). Or do you mean they released the 3e SRD as well? That would be good news. Well, they did leave the OGL alone. Though I suppose their actions discouraged many from investing time and resources into developing under it. |
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Post by thegreyelf on Jul 6, 2023 6:19:55 GMT -6
Ignoring all of the past sins of TSR, Wizards of the Coast has proven itself to be a shady company at best. Even before the OGL fiasco they were called out publicly regarding their internal practices and operations. Out of respect for the board's rules on politics I won't get into details, but suffice it to say it makes their later and current posturing about social justice ring exceptionally hollow. Again, let's not debate about those issues. The information is out there if you search.
Then the OGL mess happened, when they went back on their own company vow of two decades plus, and attempted a coup that if successful would've put hundreds of small companies out of business in one fell swoop, albeit in a manner most legal scholars predicted would not succeed when it was challenged in court. That proved that their corporate ethics are low at best. As Thomden said, they backed off when players en masse started deleting digital subscriptions, which is precisely where they want the game to go (all digital). Another factor, however, was a few bigger companies with the money to back them started working on lawsuits to challenge the OGL cancellation in court, which would've really put WotC in a permanently unfavorable position.
AFTER the OGL fiasco, they were caught sending PINKERTONS to the doorstep of a fan simply because someone else made a mistake and sold him some cards early. When called out on it, they doubled down instead of backing off.
They have repeatedly stuck their foot in their mouth in customer relations. Every effort at spin control has backfired spectacularly.
Unfortunately, they are the big kid on the block by a long shot and they're going to hang onto the property with a stranglehold until it chokes to death.
So yeah, there's nothing wrong with you at all. No one should support WotC. It's easy to say that they're a business and they're in it for money, but even businesses are expected to abide by business ethics, and WotC has shown they have none.
NOW that being said, all the way up through third edition, D&D was shepherded by companies that, while at times greedy and litigious, were still populated by gamers who deeply loved the game itself and were not corporate shills. Even during the Lorraine Williams era of TSR, the designers and staff did everything they could to produce an excellent game, and AD&D prospered and flourished during that era, because those who were writing and producing it loved it. You can still enjoy OD&D, Holmes, AD&D, B/X, BECMI, 2E, Rules Cyclopedia, and 3.x and your conscience is completely clear. When it comes to new games, the OSR is still alive and well. Most of the changes we have been forced to make are terminology based, and those that are doing it right are keeping it intuitive enough that conversion is a non-issue. My own games, for example, changed Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma to Strength, Agility, Toughness, Intelligence Wits, and Persona. I changed AC to DV (Defense Value) and Hit Points to Vitality.
The biggest changes, I posit, across the board, have been renaming and rewriting the text of spells.
So check out some of the new indie games in the OSR scene, dive in, and still continue to love your D&D of old. The community is alive and well and we are not ready to allow a dishonest, unethical corporate entity ruin our love of the game.
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Post by asaki on Jul 6, 2023 12:35:14 GMT -6
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rayotus
Level 4 Theurgist
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Post by rayotus on Jul 6, 2023 16:28:56 GMT -6
I get it. But there's no point in letting bitterness get in the way of your fun. OWN the game. It's not theirs (Wizards of the Coast). If anything, that's what we learned from this. The game is bigger than the corporate ownership. And now that the core of it is out there under creative commons (and other editions under the unprovoked OGL), there's no reason to think of WotC as anything other than "yet another" producer of D&D content. Grab books from here or there. Write your own material. Use free stuff or pay for it. It doesn't matter. There's no one right way to do D&D and no commercially-driven community with rules you have to follow. Get a band together and just play. Learn to love whatever rules set/D&D variation you or the GM is running and just forget about the politics and greed. The minute you feel like your game is being changed by how its owners choose to monetize it, you've lost sight of what D&D really is. IMO. /manifesto |
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Post by ochrejelly on Jul 6, 2023 17:17:25 GMT -6
Whether Hasbro/WOTC cares about d&d players or not is completely irrelevent. Hasbro is a publicly traded company, they are required to make the little line go up each year by their shareholders. Like every other corporation that exists, they don't give a shirt what their product is, who buys it, or anything, as long as profits increase every year. That's how capitalism works.
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aramis
Level 4 Theurgist
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Post by aramis on Jul 6, 2023 18:31:43 GMT -6
I can't get over it. The betrayal over the OGL made me very angry, and I am still mad at Dungeons & Dragons about it. It makes no sense in any rational sort of way. WotC did one better than the OGL by way of apology. But I still won't grab free 5e stuff from DriveThruRPG, which was kind of a hobby of mine, because of it. What is wrong with me? Actually, it's a VERY rational thought. Company one thinks is doing good things despite being profit driven goes and does something horrible, and betrays a public trust that they initiatied? I'm still mad at Exxon over hiring Captain Hazelwood, after all. But the OGL issue is a HUGE issue of public trust. And the management that decided to use that methodology is still in place. The fight over the OGL isn't over, just napping. So, yeah, it's normal. Just don't let it become a deep seated personality defect. It's fine to not patronize WotC over it now, later, even decades from now, provided you don't let it make you bitter, violent, or freedom-reducing-event provoking. Their betrayal isn't worth a trip to the greybar hotel. And there are so many other good games, both old and new, out there to try. |
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Post by talysman on Jul 6, 2023 22:14:13 GMT -6
Whether Hasbro/WOTC cares about d&d players or not is completely irrelevent. Hasbro is a publicly traded company, they are required to make the little line go up each year by their shareholders. Like every other corporation that exists, they don't give a shirt what their product is, who buys it, or anything, as long as profits increase every year. That's how capitalism works. The problem with responses like this is that caring about your customer is not completely irrelevant. Figuring out what your customers want and then selling that product or service to them is how business -- including capitalism -- works. You can't make the line go up if you drive away your customers. And the owners of D&D, whoever they may be at a given point in their history, have proven again and again that business works that way. Every time they took an adversarial role vs. their customers, the line went down. |
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skars
Level 6 Magician
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Post by skars on Jul 16, 2023 12:22:51 GMT -6
Each time I see this topic I think, "so would you say you are still 'Bothered About Dungeons & Dragons?'" (I will show myself out)
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 16, 2023 12:41:12 GMT -6
I saw a video, forget which one, which talked about the swing of D&D between "fan friendly" and "money maker." They will bring in the OGL in order to encourage fans to make product (which builds the D&D name) and then take it away (which builds the D&D bankroll). Back and forth several times over the years.
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Post by jdn2006 on Jul 16, 2023 13:34:39 GMT -6
... And the owners of D&D, whoever they may be at a given point in their history, have proven again and again that business works that way. Every time they took an adversarial role vs. their customers, the line went down. Yes. Not that I am saying the following video is all perfect and accurate, but . . . "The History of D&D Hasbro Refused to Learn From" by "Extra Credits" on YouTube www.youtube.com/watch?v=paEGFYSBZTE&t=1364s |
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Jul 16, 2023 15:08:01 GMT -6
I appreciate everyone's thoughts.
Thank you.
I was really looking forward to the movie, too, but my insides feel like a stubborn 4-year old about it.
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Post by tdenmark on Jul 16, 2023 15:58:11 GMT -6
I can't get over it. The betrayal over the OGL made me very angry, and I am still mad at Dungeons & Dragons about it. It makes no sense in any rational sort of way. WotC did one better than the OGL by way of apology. But I still won't grab free 5e stuff from DriveThruRPG, which was kind of a hobby of mine, because of it. What is wrong with me? Same here. I'll never get over it. I don't think I will ever buy another WotC product again. |
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Parzival
Level 6 Magician
Is a little Stir Crazy this year...
Posts: 399
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Post by Parzival on Jul 17, 2023 17:33:05 GMT -6
I got tired of 5e before the OGL fiasco, so I’d already stopped buying 5e stuff anyway.
I do buy the TSR era product on DTRPG, and I’m heavily into HeroQuest which is an Avalon Hill product, and thus a WotC product and a Hasbro product.
I would encourage people, if you’re interested in these things, to make such purchases. The more people buy old school publications and products like HeroQuest, the more Hasbro will seek to provide for that demand. That’s how free enterprise works— the customer has the power because he (or she) makes the purchase. Hasbro ain’t stupid; they know this, too.
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Post by havard on Jul 18, 2023 4:58:43 GMT -6
You can spend your life being angry or not. WotC have done a lot of stupid things lately. However, I still went to see the D&D movie and had a great time. I still play both old school D&D and 5E and I have a good time with my gaming group. I don't have time to spend the rest of my life being angry. -Havard |
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Post by ochrejelly on Jul 19, 2023 18:29:01 GMT -6
I did watch the movie because it showed up on Netflix.... 134 minutes of my time that would have been better spent watching paint dry.
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Post by rainflower on Jul 20, 2023 6:18:51 GMT -6
I can't get over it. The betrayal over the OGL made me very angry, and I am still mad at Dungeons & Dragons about it. It makes no sense in any rational sort of way. WotC did one better than the OGL by way of apology. But I still won't grab free 5e stuff from DriveThruRPG, which was kind of a hobby of mine, because of it. What is wrong with me? Your feelings are valid, a lot of people felt betrayed by it. As to why they would do it, I think others touched on that enough. At the end of the day WoTC is a business that has people to feed and bills to pay, and fun to have. They thought they were making a good business decision, whether it be for profit or security of future content. It turned out to be really bad for them. Personally I haven't had strong feelings either way, it didn't surprise me that this might happen at some point. I still appreciate that they have kept D&D alive and relevant, they pretty much resuscitated it at one point. I think if there is content that you like, get it. If you like playing 5e, don't stop playing it. When I heard of some people dropping their 5e groups over this or getting rid of all their books, I found that more shocking than the company's decision. |
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Post by thegreyelf on Jul 20, 2023 7:23:58 GMT -6
I appreciate everyone's thoughts. Thank you. I was really looking forward to the movie, too, but my insides feel like a stubborn 4-year old about it. I recommend watching the movie. WotC already made their money off of that and lots of people worked on it that have no dog in the WotC vs. fans race. It's an outstanding D&D film, fun to watch, a rollicking adventure that really feels like you're watching someone's D&D game. The humor in it is exactly the type of humor you get at the D&D table. It's worth the watch just because after all these years we finally got a worthy D&D film with an actual budget. |
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