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Post by tdenmark on Jul 3, 2023 13:08:06 GMT -6
I got to go to a screening a couple weeks ago, but I was sworn to silence. Now that it is out I can talk about it. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but...it's not good. I'll hide any spoilers so don't worry. It starts out pretty good and almost feels like an Indiana Jones movie. In fact if the whole movie had been like the first 15 minutes it would have been right up there with Temple of Doom, which I happen to like and don't know why some don't. They de-age Harrison Ford in this flashback and it's probably some of the best deep fake FX I've seen, only falling apart in certain shots and lighting. The next third of the movie is a depressing portrayal of Indy as an old man in the 60's. Where he feels completely out of place. Though I'll give some credit to the director, James Mangold, if you've seen his other movies like Logan you can recognize the style. The pacing is fine, the development of the story and character is lacking. The McGuffin, the dial of destiny, isn't what I expected and was also fine. I'm glad to say this is not exactly a time travel movie, which was my biggest fear (but, it kinda is, you have to read the spoilers or see the movie to get what I mean). The last third of the movie completely falls apart and is a dull drag with chase scenes that go on too long, and nonsensical action. The biggest obstacle to enjoyment of the movie is the character of Helena, played by Phoebe Waller-Bridge. I have no idea why this actress was cast alongside Harrison Ford. Her character is one of the most unlikeable I have seen on screen and she was annoying the whole time, to explain why I'd be spoiling the movie so I'll hide that behind the spoiler tag. Helena screws over Indy every chance she gets. She's a liar and a thief (and not even charming about it). She uses people and sells her body for favors and money (this is alluded to in the chase sequence when her Ex is after her). And she punches out Indy, an old man who is dying of a chest wound.
The time travel sequence at the end is almost spectacular. I was afraid this was going to be a time travel movie going back and rewriting Indy's story and replacing him with Helena. That was literally the rumor and was changed when test audiences hated it, and you can feel how they recut the ending. It makes no sense. Pros: Mads Mikkelsen is a fantastic villain (of course) Harrison Ford turns on the old charm every once in a while (not enough!) The first 15 minutes are fun. The ending, the last 5 minutes, is super sweet. Cons: Indy is a sad depressing old man. Indy is overshadowed by Helena the entire movie, she is the lead character not Indy! Helena has NO character arc whatsoever. Helena is unlikeable. Pacing is all over the place and the movie is too long. Feels like 3 different movie directing styles smashed into one movie. |
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bobjester0e
Level 4 Theurgist
DDO, DCC, or more Lost City map work? Oh, the hardship of making adult decisions! ;)
Posts: 195 
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Post by bobjester0e on Jul 4, 2023 6:07:31 GMT -6
I heard all those rumors too, but I was waiting for actual movie goers to confirm, before making the decision to see it or not. I probably won't, but I have friends who really want to see it, so if they ask, I will go with them.
Considering Waller-Bridge's casting, and as much as I think Shia LaBouf is a nitwit IRL, I was really looking forward to seeing him in any Indiana Jones movie after Kingdom of the Crystal Skulls as Indy's heir and successor.
I would have preferred LaBouf to W-B, but there are quotas to meet in Hollywood, and that is the priority.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 4, 2023 6:37:17 GMT -6
My wife and I actually liked the movie. Got to see it yesterday. Hard to believe that it's been 42 years since Raiders hit the big screen.  My rankings: #1 - Raiders of the Lost Ark #2 - Last Crusade #3 - Dial of Destiny #4 - Temple of Doom #5 - Crystal Shard Not the best of the series, but nowhere near the worst. I read a reviewer call it a "three hundred million dollar movie that looks like a one hundred million dollar movie." As to the good and bad points, thomden isn't far from the mark. I just liked it better, I guess. I think that the first movie of any sequence tends to be the best because it's the introduction story arc, where you first get to see the stuff that makes the franchise special. Later movies either copy that ("too derivative") or don't copy it ("didn't feel like") and either one causes criticism by somebody. However, I liked it enough that I may go again and I haven't done repeat viewings much for a long time. |
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Post by DungeonDevil on Jul 4, 2023 7:48:08 GMT -6
*Hearty standing ovation*
Ford should have handed the archaeologist's shovel over to a younger actor who can fill his charismatic shoes. In a few years, predictably, it will be rebooted. That's the way of things.
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Post by tdenmark on Jul 4, 2023 11:29:50 GMT -6
I think I'm just tired of the great beloved characters of LucasFilm: Han, Luke, and now Indy being turned into one archetype. Miserable, failed, sad old man. For contrast look how great a character Sean Connery is as an old man in Last Crusade.
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Post by geoffrey on Jul 4, 2023 13:59:19 GMT -6
So who is this Helena to Indy?
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Post by Morandir on Jul 4, 2023 15:24:52 GMT -6
The series will always be a trilogy to me. Glad I didn’t even bother with this one. I have my trilogy box set, and I am happy.
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Post by DungeonDevil on Jul 4, 2023 16:15:15 GMT -6
Sounds like a trend to paint older-than-Millennials as sad, old geezers. Perhaps the title should have been... INDIANA JONES: Okay, Boomer.  |
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Post by jeffb on Jul 4, 2023 16:29:47 GMT -6
Disney has ruined every single great property they have touched in the last 15 years- ERB/JC, Marvel, Star Wars, and now IJ. That's the nicest way for me to put it, as what I would like to say about them would get me banned.
AFAIC, Temple of Doom is a perfect D&D RPG adventure and better D&D film than any of the D&D movies could ever hope to be. It may be my favorite of the IJ series.
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Post by captainjapan on Jul 4, 2023 21:53:13 GMT -6
So who is this Helena to Indy? Helena is the daughter of a friend who adventures with Indy in the opening of the movie. |
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Post by captainjapan on Jul 4, 2023 22:14:00 GMT -6
Dial of Destiny is not the thrill ride that the other movies are, because Harrison Ford can't do stunts of any sort. He's eighty years old. Mostly, he drives things or he gets dragged around by various people.
I liked the ending. It made me cry, but I get that crying isn't what Indy fans want out of the movie. It's supposed to be fun, for crying out loud. Not depressing.
The de-aging made me cringe. It took me completely out of the film. I think the action in those scenes was as stilted as it was because they were accommodating the de-aging effects. You know, lighting, and camera angle, and all that. I don't think there were any live stunts in the whole sequence. Just CGI.
I went back and re-watched the first hour, or so, of Crystal Skull. It is still the worst of the franchise.
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Post by captainjapan on Jul 4, 2023 22:23:03 GMT -6
I think I'm just tired of the great beloved characters of LucasFilm: Han, Luke, and now Indy being turned into one archetype. Miserable, failed, sad old man. For contrast look how great a character Sean Connery is as an old man in Last Crusade. Sean Connery was only 12 years older than Harrison Ford. He was asked to return in Crystal Skull, in 2007, when he was about the age that Ford is, now. He had this to say, "I get asked the question so often, I thought it best to make an announcement. I thought long and hard about it and if anything could have pulled me out of retirement it would have been an Indiana Jones film. I love working with Steven and George, and it goes without saying that it is an honor to have Harrison as my son. But in the end, retirement is just too d**ned much fun. I, do however, have one bit of advice for Junior: Demand that the critters be digital, the cliffs be low, and for goodness sake keep that whip by your side at all times in case you need to escape from the stunt coordinator! This is a remarkable cast, and I can only say, 'Break a leg, everyone.' I'll see you on May 22, 2008, at the theater!" |
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Post by tdenmark on Jul 5, 2023 9:41:14 GMT -6
So who is this Helena to Indy? Indy's goddaughter. |
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Post by tdenmark on Jul 5, 2023 9:52:00 GMT -6
Disney has ruined every single great property they have touched in the last 15 years- ERB/JC, Marvel, Star Wars, and now IJ. That's the nicest way for me to put it, as what I would like to say about them would get me banned. AFAIC, Temple of Doom is a perfect D&D RPG adventure and better D&D film than any of the D&D movies could ever hope to be. It may be my favorite of the IJ series. Disney bought Marvel in 2009. Winter Soldier, the best Marvel movie, came out in 2014. Something happened to Disney between 2014 and now that ruined their ability to make mainstream entertainment. They need to fix it or will continue to lose money. I have a vested interest in that my wife and I are investors and she works for them. So I was not happy to have a not-positive review of DoD. |
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Post by geoffrey on Jul 5, 2023 14:28:45 GMT -6
Disney bought Marvel in 2009. Winter Soldier, the best Marvel movie, came out in 2014. Something happened to Disney between 2014 and now that ruined their ability to make mainstream entertainment. They need to fix it or will continue to lose money. I have a vested interest in that my wife and I are investors and she works for them. So I was not happy to have a not-positive review of DoD. Yep, Captain America: The Winter Soldier is easily the best of the MCU movies, and it is the only one that I re-watch. Disney has such valuable properties (Star Wars, Marvel, all those Disney princesses, etc.) that making billions of dollars in net profits should be as easy for them as falling off a log, yet they have managed to regularly fail. How does one try to fall off a log and fail? It seems to me that Disney has decided that entertaining people is not their highest priority. |
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Post by jeffb on Jul 5, 2023 14:35:29 GMT -6
Disney has ruined every single great property they have touched in the last 15 years- ERB/JC, Marvel, Star Wars, and now IJ. That's the nicest way for me to put it, as what I would like to say about them would get me banned. AFAIC, Temple of Doom is a perfect D&D RPG adventure and better D&D film than any of the D&D movies could ever hope to be. It may be my favorite of the IJ series. Disney bought Marvel in 2009. Winter Soldier, the best Marvel movie, came out in 2014. No accounting for taste. Not a fan. |
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Post by thegreyelf on Jul 5, 2023 14:37:07 GMT -6
I could not disagree more with Thomden's OP. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I loved Dial of Destiny start to finish. The first 2/3 are more of a spy thriller than an Indiana Jones movie, but they are a d**n good spy thriller. The last 1/3 is a classic Indy romp with a letter perfect ending to send him off. Outstanding, start to finish.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 5, 2023 15:19:57 GMT -6
I read somewhere that if the new Indiana Jones movie is a bomb, then Disney would be responsible for 7 of the top 10 bomb movies.
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Post by Desparil on Jul 5, 2023 17:46:32 GMT -6
I haven't seen it, but my parents saw it the other day and they loved it. It seems like it depends heavily on what expectations you bring into the theater with you.
As for Marvel, they've been struggling with what direction to take their "cinematic universe" as a whole, but they've been killing it with the Spider-Man movies. Into the Spider-Verse was excellent, No Way Home was good, and Across the Spider-Verse might just be the best Spider-Man movie there's ever been. Guardians of the Galaxy 3 was also a fun watch, maybe losing some steam but there's been enough time in between each sequel that they haven't overstayed their welcome just yet.
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Post by tdenmark on Jul 5, 2023 17:54:47 GMT -6
I haven't seen it, but my parents saw it the other day and they loved it. It seems like it depends heavily on what expectations you bring into the theater with you. As for Marvel, they've been struggling with what direction to take their "cinematic universe" as a whole, but they've been killing it with the Spider-Man movies. Into the Spider-Verse was excellent, No Way Home was good, and Across the Spider-Verse might just be the best Spider-Man movie there's ever been. Guardians of the Galaxy 3 was also a fun watch, maybe losing some steam but there's been enough time in between each sequel that they haven't overstayed their welcome just yet. That's because of Sony, not Disney. GoG 3 was fun though, but it did seem to have less energy and fun than the previous 2. |
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Post by tdenmark on Jul 5, 2023 17:59:12 GMT -6
I read somewhere that if the new Indiana Jones movie is a bomb, then Disney would be responsible for 7 of the top 10 bomb movies. It's not looking good. Maybe more people like thegreyelf will like it and by word of mouth revive the Box Office. |
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Post by Desparil on Jul 5, 2023 18:12:04 GMT -6
I haven't seen it, but my parents saw it the other day and they loved it. It seems like it depends heavily on what expectations you bring into the theater with you. As for Marvel, they've been struggling with what direction to take their "cinematic universe" as a whole, but they've been killing it with the Spider-Man movies. Into the Spider-Verse was excellent, No Way Home was good, and Across the Spider-Verse might just be the best Spider-Man movie there's ever been. Guardians of the Galaxy 3 was also a fun watch, maybe losing some steam but there's been enough time in between each sequel that they haven't overstayed their welcome just yet. That's because of Sony, not Disney. GoG 3 was fun though, but it did seem to have less energy and fun than the previous 2. It's still Marvel. I don't know how much of Spider-Man being better than Dr. Strange you can legitimately lay at the feet of the distributor being Sony instead of Disney, unless you have some inside information about executive meddling on Multiverse of Madness. |
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Post by geoffrey on Jul 5, 2023 18:34:22 GMT -6
My mother, my daughter, and I plan on seeing the new Indie movie on Tuesday, which is discount day at our local theater.  |
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Post by tdenmark on Jul 5, 2023 18:36:46 GMT -6
I could not disagree more with Thomden's OP. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I loved Dial of Destiny start to finish. The first 2/3 are more of a spy thriller than an Indiana Jones movie, but they are a d**n good spy thriller. The last 1/3 is a classic Indy romp with a letter perfect ending to send him off. Outstanding, start to finish. Did we see the same movie? While my opinion is just an opinion, I saw it at an industry screening (I have family that works for Disney/LucasFilm and live right up the road from Skywalker Ranch, so am lucky to get to see a lot of movies there with folks who work on the films). The reaction was decidedly muted. You can tell when the industry audience is being polite, or when they actually like a film. I feel sorry about the whole thing because artists work so hard on these films, sacrificing nights and weekends they could be with their family. The box office results show it is decidedly a bomb. I should emphasize, this is my experience. For those who love it, yay! I hope everyone who goes to see it with lowered expectations really enjoy the film more than I did. Some of my favorite movies had terrible reviews. |
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Post by tdenmark on Jul 5, 2023 18:45:06 GMT -6
That's because of Sony, not Disney. GoG 3 was fun though, but it did seem to have less energy and fun than the previous 2. It's still Marvel. I don't know how much of Spider-Man being better than Dr. Strange you can legitimately lay at the feet of the distributor being Sony instead of Disney, unless you have some inside information about executive meddling on Multiverse of Madness. Sony isn't "just the distributor". The live action spider-man movies were a Marvel/Disney production, with Sony heavily involved. Into the Spider-verse is all Sony. With a Marvel logo on the front. As are the related films like Venom. |
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Post by thegreyelf on Jul 6, 2023 4:27:48 GMT -6
I could not disagree more with Thomden's OP. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I loved Dial of Destiny start to finish. The first 2/3 are more of a spy thriller than an Indiana Jones movie, but they are a d**n good spy thriller. The last 1/3 is a classic Indy romp with a letter perfect ending to send him off. Outstanding, start to finish. Did we see the same movie? While my opinion is just an opinion, I saw it at an industry screening (I have family that works for Disney/LucasFilm and live right up the road from Skywalker Ranch, so am lucky to get to see a lot of movies there with folks who work on the films). The reaction was decidedly muted. You can tell when the industry audience is being polite, or when they actually like a film. I feel sorry about the whole thing because artists work so hard on these films, sacrificing nights and weekends they could be with their family. The box office results show it is decidedly a bomb. I should emphasize, this is my experience. For those who love it, yay! I hope everyone who goes to see it with lowered expectations really enjoy the film more than I did. Some of my favorite movies had terrible reviews. I find myself wondering the same thing, because the theater erupted into applause at the end of the screening I was at, and it's gotten UNIVERSAL praise across all social media from people who have seen it. Audience scores on Rotten Tomatoes are 88% positive. Critics scores are 68%, but professional critics wouldn't know a good movie if it hit them in the face, and film review websites these days have a vested interest in negativity, because toxic fandom is what sells online these days. You have to go with what people are posting on social media after having seen it to get a real feel for whether people liked it, and so far, it's pretty universally glowing feedback. Again, everyone is entitled to their opinion and if you didn't like it, you didn't like it. But your take is just so diametrically different than all the others I've seen around, it's surprising, that's all. What I saw was a film that was 2/3 a really exciting spy thriller with Indy playing the exact role Sean Connery played in Last Crusade, and the last 1/3 a classic Indiana Jones romp. I did not see the depressing portrayal you did. Sure, he was a man out of time, but it worked for the story, which I thought developed just fine as well. I thought Helena was a great character, very charming and very likeable, if flawed, and loved that she had her own Short Round sidekick. She was in the Han Solo mode, the rogue who is trying very hard to be a rogue but in the end has a heart of gold, which made for a fun juxtaposition showcasing the real differences between Indy and Han after all these years. I would absolutely watch a whole series of movies featuring her character. |
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Post by tdenmark on Jul 6, 2023 4:46:26 GMT -6
and it's gotten UNIVERSAL praise across all social media from people who have seen it. Audience scores on Rotten Tomatoes are 88% positive. I have yet to see this universal praise. Rotten Tomatoes lost any credibility years ago when they bowed to pressure from big studios to modify their calculations in their favor. It has a 6.9 on IMDB which puts it in the same company as the universally chided film Jurassic World. Despite this "universal praise" it is looking to be one of the biggest bombs in film history. Anyways, no point in debating what is ultimately a very subjective topic. I'm glad you liked it. I'm planning to rewatch the original Indy trilogy with my kids this weekend. Cheers. |
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Post by machfront on Jul 6, 2023 6:05:45 GMT -6
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Post by geoffrey on Jul 6, 2023 7:58:35 GMT -6
I will be interested to see the movie's final gross receipts. It took $250,000,000 to $300,000,000 to make, and my understanding is that a movie needs to make about twice its budget in order to break even. (I should note that movies seem to cost a crazy amount these days. The original Star Wars, which was filmed in 1976, cost $11 million to make. Run that through an inflation calculator and you get $59 million. Why did this Indie film cost 5 times more than the first Star Wars?) For me, the final test of a movie is if I like to re-watch it multiple times down the years. If yes, then it's a good movie. If no, then it's not. |
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rhialto
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 128
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Post by rhialto on Jul 6, 2023 8:44:28 GMT -6
I have learned to wait on these (just as I have with my gaming), and this looks to be just disappointing. I discount value judgments (e.g., "bomb", "blockbuster", etc.) and look instead at a range of reviews/reactions. Based on the early reactions at Cannes and subsequent reviews, I won't miss anything by skipping this (except maybe demonstrating how IJ really ended with The Last Crusade, which I don't need to pay to experience). I do wonder though: how is a film which grossed ~85% of opening weekend projections ($60M of $70M) already a "bomb"? Or is the $70M lowered from some pre-Cannes estimate?
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