What do entries mean in "MAPS: MAGIC & TREASURE" table?

[plethon]

I'm confused on what lines 4 and 6 mean in the table for Maps with Magic and Treasure,

"Map to #7 Treasure and #6 Magic (already there)"

Are they saying that you get a map to a map? Or that you are already at the treasure?

[chicagowiz]

Jun 22, 2023 10:59:56 GMT -6 plethon said:

I'm confused on what lines 4 and 6 mean in the table for Maps with Magic and Treasure,

"Map to #7 Treasure and #6 Magic (already there)"

Are they saying that you get a map to a map? Or that you are already at the treasure?

That's an awesome question - never really paid attention!

Sometimes, when I run into WTH something means in OD&D, I'll look at AD&D to see if they clarified things. And in this case, I have a feeling they did.


Look at the AD&D DMG, if you have it, pg 120. Table II.C. "COMBINED HOARD"

Entry 91-96 says " Map to 1-2 & 3-5 Monetary Treasure, 20 Magic Treasure on hand"
Entries 81-85, 86-90 and 97-00 are similar.

So I think in OD&D, it would be that 4 is "A map to magic treasure #6. At that same location is *another* map to monetary treasure #7". 6 would be "A map to Magic treasure #1. At that same location is *another* map to monetary treasure #1".

[talysman]

I agree with chicagowiz. I think another clue is that the "#6 Magic" (3 items, no swords) and "#1 Magic" (any 1 item) entries, if read the same way as the main treasure table, would mean that you are supposed to roll 3 times/1 time on the Magic/Maps Determination Table. If there's no treasure there, just a map to treasure and 3 or 1 magic item, but there's a 25% chance that item is itself a map, you could wind up with a map to a map to a map to a map...

[plethon]

Thanks for the helpful answers. I put together a 3LBB treasure tool in MS Excel today and I got a bit confused when I came to that part.



I'll post a link below if anyone is interested in checking it out, unfortunately you have to have the more recent version of Excel, it won't work on old Excel or in browser,


To use, simply select the treasure type from the dropdown list on Sheet 1 (there's no need to go look at the other sheets at all unless you are curious) and press F9 (refresh) to completely generate the treasure. I recommend turning off auto refresh in settings otherwise the whole treasure could be regenerated out from under you while you are looking over it or trying to copy and paste it somewhere else.



The tool will fully generate all treasure types faithfully to 3lbb including spell scrolls and Magic Sword abilities, powers and special purposes. The only unincluded part is any Prisoners which may be held by Type A treasure holders.



EDIT: Fixed link www.sendspace.com/file/igplk6

[howandwhy99]

Just chiming into agree. I don't think any of these treasure map hoards require chance rolling, they are simply already there. 100%

So treasure maps lead to coin. Magic Maps lead to Magic items. Each and every time.

The treasure and Magic maps are combined. And entries 4 & 6 both have additional treasure maps once the original treasure map hoard is discovered. Magic items, aka the magic treasure, are found after the first treasure hunt right alongside the second map.
(Maybe the second map is a Magic Item?)

[grodog]

Jun 22, 2023 11:12:12 GMT -6 chicagowiz said:

So I think in OD&D, it would be that 4 is "A map to magic treasure #6. At that same location is *another* map to monetary treasure #7". 6 would be "A map to Magic treasure #1. At that same location is *another* map to monetary treasure #1".

That's basically how we ended up interpreting them on K&KA at www.knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=14379 and how I tweaked the map tables in my two Twisting Stair articles on treasure maps.

Allan.

[robertsconley]

Jun 22, 2023 10:59:56 GMT -6 plethon said:

I'm confused on what lines 4 and 6 mean in the table for Maps with Magic and Treasure,

"Map to #7 Treasure and #6 Magic (already there)"

Are they saying that you get a map to a map? Or that you are already at the treasure?

I coded up the OD&D treasure tables in Javascript.

www.batintheattic.com/tables_1974/

The code is located here.

www.batintheattic.com/tables_1974/app.js

So here is the routine on the Magic or Map entry (if rolled)


function GenAnyItem(Roll)
{
var SB = new StringBuilder();

var I = 0;
for (I = 1; I <= Roll; I++)
{
if (I > 1)
{
SB.Append("; ");
}
num = D(100);
if (num >= 1 && num <= 75)
{
SB.Append(GenMagicItem(1));
}
else if (num >= 76 && num <= 100)
{
SB.Append(GenMaps(1));
}
}
return SB.ToString();
}



This reflects that from 01 to 75 you generate a magic item, then from 76 to 100 you generate a map.

When a map is generated I do this.


function GenMaps(Roll)
{
var SB = new StringBuilder();

{
for (I = 1; I <= Roll; I++)
{
if (I > 1)
{
SB.Append("; ");
}
num = D(100);
if (num >= 1 && num <= 60)
{
SB.Append(TreasureMap(0));
}
else if (num >= 61 && num <= 90)
{
SB.Append(MagicMap(0));
}
else if (num >= 91 && num <= 100)
{
SB.Append(TreasureMagicMap());
}
}
return SB.ToString();
}
}


For both Treasure Maps and maps to magic items I pass in a dice roll with 0 meaning a random result is returned. A d8 roll for for both types of Maps.

However for Treasure & Magic Maps It looks like this.


function TreasureMagicMap()
{
var SB = new StringBuilder();
Roll = D(8);
SB.Append("Map To (");
switch (Roll)
{
case 1:
SB.Append(TreasureMap(1));
SB.Append("; ");
SB.Append(MagicMap(1));
break;
case 2:
SB.Append(TreasureMap(2));
SB.Append("; ");
SB.Append(MagicMap(1));
break;
case 3:
SB.Append(TreasureMap(3));
SB.Append("; ");
SB.Append(MagicMap(4));
break;
case 4:
SB.Append(TreasureMap(7));
SB.Append("; ");
SB.Append(MagicMap(6));
break;
case 5:
SB.Append(TreasureMap(5));
SB.Append("; ");
SB.Append(MagicMap(4));
break;
case 6:
SB.Append(TreasureMap(1));
SB.Append("; ");
SB.Append(MagicMap(1));
break;
case 7:
SB.Append(TreasureMap(6));
SB.Append("; ");
SB.Append(MagicMap(8));
break;
case 8:
SB.Append(TreasureMap(8));
SB.Append("; ");
SB.Append(MagicMap(7));
break;
}
SB.Append(")");
return SB.ToString();
}


Which I interpreted as result #X on either the Treasure Map table or on the Magic Map table.

Hope this helps.

[robertsconley]

Jun 26, 2023 23:15:40 GMT -6 grodog said:

Jun 22, 2023 11:12:12 GMT -6 chicagowiz said:

So I think in OD&D, it would be that 4 is "A map to magic treasure #6. At that same location is *another* map to monetary treasure #7". 6 would be "A map to Magic treasure #1. At that same location is *another* map to monetary treasure #1".

That's basically how we ended up interpreting them on K&KA at www.knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=14379 and how I tweaked the map tables in my two Twisting Stair articles on treasure maps.

Allan.

I think I will need to adjust #4 and #6 on my tables as well. Good catch everyone.

[Desparil]

My natural reading of this table is the opposite of what seems to be the majority opinion in this thread. In my mind, the obvious interpretation of "Map to #7 Treasure and #6 Magic (already there)" is that you find a map which leads to #7 Treasure, and immediately alongside the map you also find #6 Magic - it's already there at your current location. Looking at the AD&D DMG as suggested earlier only adds further evidence; for example, I cannot see any possible way to read "Map to 11-12 8 13-15 Monetary Treasure plus 15-18 Magic Treasure, 20 Magic Treasure on hand" other than finding immediately on hand a cache of magic items, alongside a map leading to platinum, gems, potions, and scrolls (per the map table entries specified).

I would say this can indeed recursively generate more maps, but I think that's also why the AD&D treasure tables reduced the chance of a map to 10% instead of 25% and also why newly-invented treasure types tended to have fewer "Any Magic" entries and more that specified a particular type of items, since such specific treasure bypass the roll for maps and go directly to the relevant sub-table. Even at a 25% chance, though, it's still not like the treasure table is just maps all the way down. With 60% of maps leading only to monetary treasure, the average number of magic items per map comes out to just under 1 - it's 0.95 to be specific - so over the long term, somewhere around 24% of maps will lead to a further map. The exact calculation would more properly be the probability of finding one or more maps as part of a map hoard, and would be slightly lower, but for the small difference it makes I don't consider it a productive use to time to quibble over a percentage point or two.

[chicagowiz]

Desparil - that's an interesting observation! I guess it would come down to what you, as the DM, wanted to have happen - a treasure find that has a map that leads to treasure and another map, or a treasure find that has some loot *and* a map that leads to another treasure.

I know that I wouldn't do a recursive "map to a map to a map" through just dice rolls - that would be something I would set up deliberately if that's what I wanted.

[talysman]

Jun 28, 2023 21:54:39 GMT -6 Desparil said:

My natural reading of this table is the opposite of what seems to be the majority opinion in this thread. In my mind, the obvious interpretation of "Map to #7 Treasure and #6 Magic (already there)" is that you find a map which leads to #7 Treasure, and immediately alongside the map you also find #6 Magic - it's already there at your current location.

The problem with this interpretation is that we're talking about a sub-table of the treasure table. The treasure table generates your main treasure -- gold, silver, copper, gems, jewelry, and then magic items or maps. The next sub-table (MAGIC/MAPS DETERMINATION TABLE, page 23) determines which of those last items are magic items and which are maps. 75% of the time, it's a magic item. 25% of the time, it's a map. Which leads to three sub-sub-tables for kinds of maps. By the time you get to the Magic & Treasure Map table, you already know how many magic items you have vs. how many maps. If the roll on the Magic & Treasure Map table added additional magic items to the current location instead of leading you to a location with magic items + a map, you'd be retroactively increasing the number of magic items.

Plus: What does the #6 refer to in the line "Map to #7 Treasure and #6 Magic (already there)"? Clearly, it means line #6 of the Magic Map table on the previous page (three items, no swords.) If the "already there" means the magic items are in the current location, why refer to line 6 of another map table, instead of just saying "Map to #7 Treasure, plus add three items to current treasure (no swords)"?

[Desparil]

Jun 29, 2023 10:39:15 GMT -6 talysman said:

Jun 28, 2023 21:54:39 GMT -6 Desparil said:

My natural reading of this table is the opposite of what seems to be the majority opinion in this thread. In my mind, the obvious interpretation of "Map to #7 Treasure and #6 Magic (already there)" is that you find a map which leads to #7 Treasure, and immediately alongside the map you also find #6 Magic - it's already there at your current location.

The problem with this interpretation is that we're talking about a sub-table of the treasure table. The treasure table generates your main treasure -- gold, silver, copper, gems, jewelry, and then magic items or maps. The next sub-table (MAGIC/MAPS DETERMINATION TABLE, page 23) determines which of those last items are magic items and which are maps. 75% of the time, it's a magic item. 25% of the time, it's a map. Which leads to three sub-sub-tables for kinds of maps. By the time you get to the Magic & Treasure Map table, you already know how many magic items you have vs. how many maps. If the roll on the Magic & Treasure Map table added additional magic items to the current location instead of leading you to a location with magic items + a map, you'd be retroactively increasing the number of magic items.

Plus: What does the #6 refer to in the line "Map to #7 Treasure and #6 Magic (already there)"? Clearly, it means line #6 of the Magic Map table on the previous page (three items, no swords.) If the "already there" means the magic items are in the current location, why refer to line 6 of another map table, instead of just saying "Map to #7 Treasure, plus add three items to current treasure (no swords)"?

I don't see any problem with retroactively increasing the number of magic items.

Also, repeating the same information in more than one place seems to have been a pet peeve of Gary Gygax - look all through the AD&D 1E books and you'll see plenty of places where he chooses to reference another section of text rather than explaining a relevant concept on the spot, no matter how much more sensible it would be to include the information on the spot. Or how close that information may be, for that matter; on page 13 of the DMG, there's the note (Cf. Death Due to Age subsection of DEATH.) and the referenced subsection is on page 15. I regard the use of "#6 Magic" rather than reiterating "3 Items, No Swords" to simply be an idiosyncrasy of his writing style.

[Starbeard]

I tend to go by assume that whatever takes the least amount of critical analysis to explain is the original intent. Here is the complete table:

DIE ROLL	MAP TO –
1	#1 Treasure and #1 Magic
2	#2 Treasure and #1 Magic
3	#3 Treasure and #4 Magic
4	Map to #7 Treasure and #6 Magic (already there)
5	#5 Treasure and #4 Magic
6	Map to #1 Treasure and #1 Magic (already there)
7	#6 Treasure and #8 Magic
8	#8 Treasure and #7 Magic

Note that all of these are clearly "maps to a treasure," and the only question is "what treasure." If you roll a 4 or a 6, then your treasure map leads to some magic items and another map to more (monetary) treasure.

The only reason it's worded awkwardly is because Arneson or Gygax, whoever drafted the table, must have been OCD enough to feel that the order of listing treasure then magic could not be broken—even though only the treasure portion has the potential of being punted to a new map. "#6 Magic and map to #7 treasure" would have been a less cumbersome way of writing it, certainly.

[Desparil]

Jun 29, 2023 22:21:36 GMT -6 Starbeard said:

Note that all of these are clearly "maps to a treasure," and the only question is "what treasure." If you roll a 4 or a 6, then your treasure map leads to some magic items and another map to more (monetary) treasure.

The only reason it's worded awkwardly is because Arneson or Gygax, whoever drafted the table, must have been OCD enough to feel that the order of listing treasure then magic could not be broken—even though only the treasure portion has the potential of being punted to a new map. "#6 Magic and map to #7 treasure" would have been a less cumbersome way of writing it, certainly.

Hm, okay, I think I'm convinced on this being the intention after more consideration of the absence of the words "map to" on the other sub-table entries and the general idiosyncrasies of Gygax's writing. I think I might still prefer the idea of rarely having a map come with some co-located magic items, though.

[Starbeard]

Jun 29, 2023 23:22:50 GMT -6 Desparil said:

I think I might still prefer the idea of rarely having a map come with some co-located magic items, though.

Personally, so do I. If I roll on the treasure table and get a map, I usually give something like a 1:6 chance that there's a magic item with it anyway. If the monetary treasure came up zilch, then I might just decide to include a magic item, plus keep rolling for treasure until something comes up if the item wasn't particularly exciting.

I've also occasionally used different methods of rolling again after magic is found to see if even more magic is found.

[howandwhy99]

It's common knowledge communication is always an incomplete practice. And it requires interpretation (AKA invention) by the listener to comprehend.

I think it's up to the DM to use the rules which work for them. I would only advise that they actually work: functionally, are balanced, and are adhered to when running the game. Otherwise it becomes impossible to game the design because they aren't repeatedly applied.

[gemini476]

Having it be a map that leads to a treasure and a second map certainly makes the map-to-a-map much less of a wild goose chase - now it's a map-to-a-map but also you got some bonus treasure on the halfway point.

Now, I'd also be inclined to not roll on the MAGIC/MAPS DETERMINATION TABLE for the found item... but that's just me.

[Mordorandor]

I too saw it in the same way as Desparil, having a magic item located in the same location as a map that leads to a treasure somewhere else.

It does seem like a fun exercise to have a set of adventures strung together, basically becoming a jaunt from one treasure to another, over some long distances, prompted/aided by nothing more than large X's on some aged pieces of parchment!