Using Chainmal Combat?

[Random]

I've been thinking a lot lately about how much I like the combat tables (man-to-man and missile fire) from the back of Chainmail.

My idea is to use something similar for D&D, with each creature having "hits" instead of hit dice (Fin actually joked about this at one point, but I'm completely serious!).

When melee takes place, all I'd have to do is look at what weapon (or equivalent) and armor (or equivalent) is involved, look at the table, and then roll 2d6 possibly a bunch of times in whatever order is appropriate for the positioning and weapon classes of the participants. Each "kill" deals one "hit" of damage.

Combat would be quick and deadly (or not, if you're wearing plate mail and getting pecked with daggers) so that we can get on with the adventure (or have even more combats!).

Is anyone doing anything similar?
Is this a horrible idea?
Any other random thoughts?

[Finarvyn]

Dec 2, 2008 21:56:06 GMT -6 Random said:

Fin actually joked about this at one point, but I'm completely serious!

I'd have to check the post, but I'm not sure if I was joking at the time. I've actually used a system similar to what you suggest.

I used the "mass combat" tables and had each monster rated according to "heavy horse" or "armored foot" or whatever. I tried using one rating for BOTH attack and defense and hated it, so I would suggest rating attack and defense seperately.

What became a bit of a pain was fractional units. In other words, if 6 orcs are attacking when I look at the chart it might suggest a 4:1 basis (just a made-up example; charts not handy) but since 6 doesn't divide into 4's equally I had to worry about rounding, etc. Not too bad if every unit is similar, but characters tended to be more unique and this made calculation more complex. (Another "fix" I would suggest is allowing players to keep track of their own numbers. I tried to keep the charts a secret and I think I messed up repeatedly, but the players couldn't check my mental math.)

Both monsters and characters would get "hits" equal to their hit dice. One time I assumed characters heal up between encounters, another time I tried letting the damage carry over (more like a "regular" D&D game.) I had mixed results, and the one method seemed to make characters too strong while the other seemed to make them too weak.

Anyway, the players had a good time and were encouraging me to give that system another shake-down to see how it works. I just haven't gotten around to it yet......

[Random]

Cool deal.

I wasn't thinking about bothering with specific categories (Armored Foot, etc.), but rather just using the tables as hit probabilities for hitting certain armor types with each weapon (and using the chainmail rules for first strike, parry, etc.).

Higher level characters wouldn't get greater chances to hit, but simply more chances to hit.

[thegreyelf]

You might want to check out Spellcraft & Swordplay. It's an Old-School game that was inspired by the idea of using Chainmail's combat system as a basis for an rpg. It's not a true retro-clone, as it doesn't faithfully reproduce Chainmail or OD&D, but it's gotten rave reviews from most of the grognards who have poked through. Indeed, Finarvyn even gave us our own board here .

[jimlotfp]

In my current campaign, for humans and human-like characters using weapons, I use the Chainmail charts (horse and barding becomes "Large Creatures" and "Large Armored Creatures").

For monsters, I use the alternate charts so I don't even have to worry about the issues of weapon vs AC concerning "natural" monster attacks.

[Random]

I may do so as well, but I'm also tempted to just use the derivative charts found in Greyhawk.
We've only just begun (a PBP), and there's been no combat yet.

[thegreyelf]

Incidentally, in Underworld and Wilderness Adventures, it's pretty clear on what you're supposed to do, if not how exactly it's supposed to work:

The basic system is that from CHAINMAIL, with one figure representing one man or creature. Melee can be conducted with the combat table given in Volume I or by the CHAINMAIL system, with scores equalling a drive back or kill equal only to a hit. Battles involving large numbers of figures can be fought at a 20:1 ratio, with single fantastic types fighting separately at 1:1 or otherwise against but a single 20:1 figure.

OD&D, Book 3, p. 25

[thegreyelf]

Hm...thinking more about this, a light glimmers inside yon head.

It would seem that there are two ways to handle this:

1. Instead of just using the man to man rules, what you'd do if fighting non-fantastic creatures, or lesser versions like orcs or goblins, would be to roll dice based on your armament vs. their defense dice, and looking for kill scores.

So let's say for example, your character, with plate armor, a sword and a shield, is considered armored foot. He faces down against a goblin. Unfortunately, it's not clear how a goblin attacks and defends, though hobgoblins, presumably a larger, angrier breed, fight as Armored and defend as Heavy foot, so it's probably reasonable to guess that goblins fight as heavy foot and defend as light foot.

Consulting the tables on page 40, we see that Armored Foot vs. Light Foot allows 1 die with a 4-6 equalling a kill.

Our intrepid warrior rolls the die and gets a 5. Instead of killing the goblin outright, he inflicts 1 die of damage.

2. Use man to man rules and score goblins, orcs, etc, based on the armor they're wearing.

Option 1 makes it easier to reconcile the advancement tables for combat prowess. Once you hit "Hero" status, you'd get additional dice based on the fact that now you count as four men. Superhero status means you get dice based on being eight men.

[Deleted]

Good guess on the goblins, if you look at the Appendix D fantasy reference table, goblins are Hv ft attack, Lt ft defend.

I've used the fantasy mass combat system for one day battles.

For D&D I used an alternative combat system that included the weapon/armor class matrix from supplement I, which in turn came directly from the man to man combat system in chainmail.

[thegreyelf]

Ah, good catch re: the fantasy reference table. I didn't have my copy with me and was trying to "flip" back and forth using a PDF. Easy to miss things that way.