Monster/Treasure Assortments and the curious caecilia

[chicagowiz]

I was reading another thread where something geoffrey wrote mixed with something I'd just encountered while creating my OD&D Dungeon23. The thread is in OD&D, called "The Lost Edition"

I have a PDF of the Monster/Treasure Assortment (Levels 4-6) what looks like it might be a mashup of the first printing covers (according to Acaeum) and the third or fourth print insides (references "Halfling Hero/Thief" for Level 6, Number 43.)  Regardless of the odd provenance, I'm certain that the text inside predates 1980, which is why I wanted to share something that points to the MTA might not have referenced all publicly-available source material from pre-1980.

Exhibit A is the caecilia - Level 6, Number 58. "58, Caecilia - (1) HP 37;#AT 1; AL 5; AC 6; ST/F 2; SA: Giant Worm swallows whole on 19 or 20."

I'd never heard of this creature before, went to my cheat sheet of OD&D monsters and their sources, went to the Monster Manual and even Holmes - not there. As near as I can tell, its first published reference is in Expert from 1981.

Exhibit B is the "Giant Lizard, Tuatara" - Level 6, Number 54. It was first named so in Moldvay Basic.

So the MT&A were source materials in and of themselves, sharing monsters for the first time? Or was the caecilia and tuatara referenced somewhere else obscurely, like troglodytes first appearing in the WinterCon 1976 tournament version of Lost Caverns of Tsojconth?

(PS. My version of the caecilia is a bit warped, in that it can melt/reform into stone ala the liquid metal T-1000. Something that can pursue PCs by appearing/running that way, and being able to swallow them whole? What's not to love?!?)

[geoffrey]

Apr 18, 2023 7:22:39 GMT -6 chicagowiz said:

Exhibit A is the caecilia - Level 6, Number 58. "58, Caecilia - (1) HP 37;#AT 1; AL 5; AC 6; ST/F 2; SA: Giant Worm swallows whole on 19 or 20."...

Exhibit B is the "Giant Lizard, Tuatara" - Level 6, Number 54.

In 1977's Monster & Treasure Assortment: Set Two: Levels Four-Six we have:

Level 6, number 58: Trapper (1)

Level 6, number 54: Slithering Tracker (1-2)

At least some of your pages must come from the 1980 compilation. Here is a list of all the changes:
acaeum.com/library/m&tchanges.html

[Zenopus]

It's possible that there were some changes made to a later printing, but I'd be careful spending too much time analyzing a PDF of uncertain provenance as it possible that the PDF itself was edited by someone. As in, someone may have edited the PDF to match the later set. We'd really need to see an original printed copy.

That said, the Monster & Treasure Assortment Set One was included in the first printing of the Holmes Basic Set, so was definitely out prior to the Monster Manual, and contains monsters that had not yet been given a full write-up in D&D: Centipedes (note the missing "Giant"), Giant Rats, Carnivorous Apes, Large/Huge Spiders, Giant Lizards, Giant Weasels. Probably some others. These were all mentioned somewhere in the OD&D booklets by name but not given stats until the M&TA and then the Monster Manual. I'd guess that whoever wrote up the M&TA (Ernie Gygax has stated that he did the work) was working off a draft of the Monster Manual.

[talysman]

I don't know if the caecilia or tuatara were referenced in a previous source like a dungeon module or article in The Dragon. But it seems to me that they might not have been statted out because most real-world animals were just lumped together in the Small Insects or Animals and Large Insects or Animals entries in Volume 2. That is, I think there was a shift in approach from "just stat out fantasy creatures and a handful of frequently-used mundane creatures like horses and leave the rest for GM discretion" to the "stat out every natural and giant-version animal" approach of AD&D and the classic line.

So, rather than Ernie Gygax taking stats for things like giant rats and carnivorous apes from a draft of the Monster Manual, he may have just sprinkled in real or nearly-real animals with whatever stats he felt fit because that was standard GM practice at the time.

[chicagowiz]

Apr 18, 2023 8:47:25 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

At least some of your pages must come from the 1980 compilation. Here is a list of all the changes:
acaeum.com/library/m&tchanges.html

It sure seems like that and thank you for showing me that page! It didn't come up on my searches.

Interesting that they listed the caecilia in 1980, but Expert (which is the first published rule reference) came out in 81. They must've been working off an internal list of what was coming up.

Now I either need a PDF/copy from the pre-80 printings or I'm going to edit my PDF to have the original monsters from OD&D...

(edited to add: or pencil in the changes into my copy of the 1980 combined...)

[chicagowiz]

Apr 18, 2023 9:08:55 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

It's possible that there were some changes made to a later printing, but I'd be careful spending too much time analyzing a PDF of uncertain provenance as it possible that the PDF itself was edited by someone. As in, someone may have edited the PDF to match the later set. We'd really need to see an original printed copy.

I think you're right, and I wish I had one of the pre-80 versions. For now, it looks like some sort of cross-reference is in my future :S

[Zenopus]

Apr 18, 2023 9:33:21 GMT -6 talysman said:

So, rather than Ernie Gygax taking stats for things like giant rats and carnivorous apes from a draft of the Monster Manual, he may have just sprinkled in real or nearly-real animals with whatever stats he felt fit because that was standard GM practice at the time.

That's a possibility, but if so then the stats from the M&TA must have been used for the Monster Manual entries, because the two sets of stats are close.

If we look at the Carnivorous Ape, entry #19 on Level 1, we see:

Carnivorous Apes - (1) HP: 18; #AT: 3; AL: 6; ST/F 4-6; SA: if 2nd and 3rd attacks score, the ape does 1-8 points additional damage (rending).

These entries are weird in that they don't give HD, only AL ("Attack Level"), which is THAC9 (score to hit AC 9) and "ST", which is Saving Throw. But this was early on and they were still working out how to present monster stats in abbreviated form.

If we look at the MM, the C. Ape has a HD of 5, which fits with it saving as "F 4-6" (Fighter 4-6). Number of attacks, three, also matches, as does the Special Attack of rending, a term also used in the MM entry, and it does the same amount of bonus damage (1-8).

The only stat that doesn't match is "AL" (THAC9). A 5 HD creature would have an AL of 5 using the "Monsters Attacking" table in Vol 2 of OD&D, where as an AL of 6 would be for HD "3-4". But maybe they only had 4 HD at this point and were later increased.

[geoffrey]

Fun fact: To thoroughly use the original Monster & Treasure Assortments and to get by far the best fit you need only:

1. the 1974 D&D boxed set

2. Supplement I: GREYHAWK

3. the AD&D Monster Manual

4. the ranger from The Strategic Review #2



The monsters in M&TA consist of about 123 monsters (all in the Monster Manual) and clerics, fighters, magic-users, thieves, paladins, and rangers (though rangers are only on level 6, whereas the other five classes are scattered throughout the nine levels). No druids, illusionists, assassins, monks, or bards anywhere.

[chicagowiz]

Apr 18, 2023 14:53:42 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

Apr 18, 2023 9:33:21 GMT -6 talysman said:

So, rather than Ernie Gygax taking stats for things like giant rats and carnivorous apes from a draft of the Monster Manual, he may have just sprinkled in real or nearly-real animals with whatever stats he felt fit because that was standard GM practice at the time.

(snip)
Carnivorous Apes - (1) HP: 18; #AT: 3; AL: 6; ST/F 4-6; SA: if 2nd and 3rd attacks score, the ape does 1-8 points additional damage (rending).
(snip)
The only stat that doesn't match is "AL" (THAC9). A 5 HD creature would have an AL of 5 using the "Monsters Attacking" table in Vol 2 of OD&D, where as an AL of 6 would be for HD "3-4". But maybe they only had 4 HD at this point and were later increased.

I've ignored AL and just referenced back to OD&D or the source of the monster to get its HD. (the spreadsheet that I think I found linked here for all the OD&D monsters has been of great help!).

HP of 18 seems to fit HD4 - the mean of a d8 (4.5) - 4.5 * 4 == 18. So that actually tracks pretty nicely with AL of 6, HD of 4.

[asaki]

Apr 18, 2023 7:22:39 GMT -6 chicagowiz said:

I have a PDF of the Monster/Treasure Assortment (Levels 4-6) what looks like it might be a mashup of the first printing covers (according to Acaeum) and the third or fourth print insides (references "Halfling Hero/Thief" for Level 6, Number 43.)

Yes, they took the B/X era M&TA scans, colorized the pages, and threw the original covers on them.

I've noticed they've been doing similar things to other books. It's pretty skeezy.

There -is- a scan of the original Levels 1-3 out there if you look hard enough, but I've been unable to find the other two and have been compiling my info from photos found on eBay... ¬_¬

[chicagowiz]

Apr 19, 2023 11:05:07 GMT -6 asaki said:

Apr 18, 2023 7:22:39 GMT -6 chicagowiz said:

I have a PDF of the Monster/Treasure Assortment (Levels 4-6) what looks like it might be a mashup of the first printing covers (according to Acaeum) and the third or fourth print insides (references "Halfling Hero/Thief" for Level 6, Number 43.)

Yes, they took the B/X era M&TA scans, colorized the pages, and threw the original covers on them.

I've noticed they've been doing similar things to other books. It's pretty skeezy.

There -is- a scan of the original Levels 1-3 out there if you look hard enough, but I've been unable to find the other two and have been compiling my info from photos found on eBay... ¬_¬

Oof, that's a tough way to go! Good luck!

[jamesmishler]

FWIW, B/X was released in January 1981. It was, IIRC, originally supposed to be a Christmas 1980 release but just missed the date. So the MS was sure to have been around in some state since at least early 1980, if not sooner.

Also, Moldvay's mix of monsters is, as long noted, significantly different from that of Holmes. Moldvay also ran regular sessions of his Known World at TSR, which had a wild mix of additional monsters.

Excerpts of that material, which eventually led to the development of the Mystara setting, were released a few years ago on The Piazza in the Mystara forum. Perhaps the predecessor to the Caecila is in there? I've not looked at it in some time...