|
|
Post by Malchor on Mar 13, 2023 13:10:55 GMT -6
I'm trying to work out some missing bit for the Magic User stats. Wondering how others would fill out this missing information, am I missing something in the book? 1. Men and Magic's XP table goes to 11th level for the MU.
2. Men and Magic's HD/FC/Spells table goes to 16th level for the MU.
3. Men and Magic's Levels Above those Listed section add levels 17th–19th for HD/FC/Spells for the Magic User and can easily be added to the above. Maybe it is me, however this section did nothing to make the progression more obvious. That give us: | Level | XP | HD | FC | | Wizard | 300000 | 8 + 1 | Wizard | | Wizard, 12th Level | | 8 + 2 | Wizard | | Wizard, 13th Level | | 8 + 3 | Wizard | | Wizard, 14th Level | | 8 + 4 | Wizard + 1 | | Wizard, 15th Level | | 9 + 1 | Wizard + 1 | | Wizard, 16th Level | | 9 + 2
| Wizard + 2 | | Wizard, 17th Level | | 9 + 3 | Wizard + 2 | | Wizard, 18th Level | | 10 + 1 | Wizard + 2 | | Wizard, 19th Level | | 10 + 2 | Wizard + 3 | | Wizard, 20th Level | |
|
| | Wizard, 21st Level | | |
| | Wizard, 22nd Level | | |
|
Judges Guild for the Judge's Shield, went with +300,000 xp per level after Wizard, but I'm not seeing where that rule is. For HD: I solved it below, in a comment lower down.How do you fill in the missing part from the chart? And what pattern do you use? Is there a pattern at all? Greyhawk amends the above, but let's ignore that for now. |
|
|
|
Post by Malchor on Mar 13, 2023 13:19:30 GMT -6
My guess so far is that for XP, use the JG method unless there is something in the rules.
HD, I would go with 10 +3, 11+1, 11+2.
FC, I would go with Wizard + 3, Wizard + 3, Wizard + 3 or Wizard + 4 for 22nd level, likely the latter since if you made it this far, you deserve the extra +1.
|
|
|
|
Post by Desparil on Mar 13, 2023 16:23:29 GMT -6
The +300,000 per level isn't in the rules anywhere, but it's been clarified in Q&A sessions by Gary and others who played in his original group that this was the intention and the way they had always played. It might have appeared in an early Strategic Review or Dragon as well, but I couldn't tell you for sure one way or the other.
As for hit dice, my opinion is that the usual progression is to go from M+3 to N+1, with the 14th level wizard getting 8+4 being an anomaly. So 20th level would be 10+3, 21st level would be 11+1, and 22nd level would be 11+2 for hit dice.
Based on the charts plus the prose description of higher levels not on the charts, increases in Fighting Capability for upper-level characters appear to happen on X+2 hit dice values - whenever any of the three classes is at 8+1, 9+1, or 10+1 hit dice, there is no change in Fighting Capability, but in all listed cases the next bump up to 10+2 (or 10+3 for the fighter) brings the Fighting Capability up along with it. The only anomaly is wizards being stuck at "Wizard" Fighting Capability from 7 HD all the way to 8+3 HD, but the text description of higher levels seems to supersede this at upper levels. So for wizards up to 22nd level, I would say that they remains as "Wizard + 3" for 20th and 21st levels, and then increase to "Wizard + 4" at 22nd level.
|
|
|
|
Post by waysoftheearth on Mar 13, 2023 19:12:32 GMT -6
The +300,000 per level isn't in the rules anywhere, We do have it explicitly for thieves (GH p9, as well as in the earlier, original thief in GPGPN), so i guess it's implied for the other classes. |
|
|
|
Post by Malchor on Mar 13, 2023 19:31:38 GMT -6
The +300,000 per level isn't in the rules anywhere, We do have it explicitly for thieves (GH p9, as well as in the earlier, original thief in GPGPN), so i guess it's implied for the other classes. DOH! Thank you. |
|
|
|
Post by Desparil on Mar 13, 2023 21:07:39 GMT -6
The +300,000 per level isn't in the rules anywhere, We do have it explicitly for thieves (GH p9, as well as in the earlier, original thief in GPGPN), so i guess it's implied for the other classes. If we bring GH into it then Fighting Capability is also delineated for magic-users at 20th through 22nd levels, though this is explicitly a revision to the prior rules - it sticks at "Wizard + 2" for longer, not increasing to "Wizard + 3" until 21st level. |
|
|
|
Post by Zenopus on Mar 13, 2023 22:21:28 GMT -6
We do have it explicitly for thieves (GH p9, as well as in the earlier, original thief in GPGPN), so i guess it's implied for the other classes. DOH! Thank you. This thread may be of interest regarding the XP requirements: Experience Required for Continued AdvancementOf note, in addition to the Thief class, the Illusionist, Ranger and Alchemist published in Dragon all follow this same pattern. |
|
|
|
Post by Malchor on Mar 14, 2023 7:01:54 GMT -6
This thread may be of interest regarding the XP requirements: Experience Required for Continued AdvancementOf note, in addition to the Thief class, the Illusionist, Ranger and Alchemist published in Dragon all follow this same pattern. I see it now in the Ranger stating at Ranger Lord and Illusionist. As to the pattern for everything else, I think see it now. Looks like the idea was to look at the pattern starting at where the table left off, where the name level starts. It is still hard to see as explained, and Greyhawk does contradict M&M's Magic User progression, though that can be explained as part of the rebalancing. Speaking of Greyhawk, the "Maximum Number" of hit dice, before switching to "Additional Points per Level Thereafter" lines up with the start of named levels (e.g., Lord is 9th, Wizard 11th, Patriarch 8th, Master Thief 10th). Which you noted in the thread you pointed out.A few interesting notes:
The Druid as a Cleric sub-class should start at 8th level, however it starts at 11th, betraying it as really a Cleric + Magic User subclass much like the Greyhawk Druid. That also explains p. 13's "Magic-Users (Druids)" and p. 22's "Clerics (Druids)." The level title and XP progression follow that of the MU. Then there are the three exceptions: the Monk, Assassin and Bard. The first two from the Blackmoor supplement, edited by Tim Kask, and the last from a Tim Kask edited edition of Strategic Review. It shows a lesser involvement from Gary and changes in design choices as part of the passing of the editing baton. For the Monk and Assassin, they not only do not follow the XP progression of Gary's design, they do not follow the Greyhawk hit die progression either. The Bard sort uses the Greyhawk HD progression, but it is a mashup in keeping with the class, the Cleric's d6, the Thief's level title starting at 10, with the Magic Users +1 HP per level over the title and XP progression that is all over the place—it kind of looks like Doug Schwegman, the author of the Bard, was intentionally mixing elements up as much as possible To bring the Assassin back in line with Gary's design, its named level as a thief sub-class starts at 10th, HD would be : Level XP HD 10th 275000 10 11th 550,000 10 +1 12th 675,000 10 + 2 13th 825,000 10 +3 In this case, the Assassin get's a 4 sider for HD. But, the Assassin uses a 6 sided HD, which would tie it to the Cleric's Greyhawk HD progression and XP progression, that looks like: Level XP HD 8th 100000 8 9th 200000 8 10th 300000 8 + 1 11th 400000 8 +1 12th 500000 8 + 2 13th 600000 8 +2 In this case, the Assassin get's a 6 sider for HD. To bring the Monk back in line with Gary's design, its named level as a cleric sub-class should start at 8th, though the Monk is also described as "combines the general attributes of Thief and Fighting-Man," so much like the Druid, the Monk could start its named level at 9th or 10th as a mixed class), using 10th to match the thief and the 4 sided HD, you get the following—a steeper first climb, but a lower overall threshold to get to 16th level: Level XP HD 10th 450000 10 11th 900,000 10 + 1 12th 1,050,000 10 + 2 13th 1,300,000 10 + 3 14th 1,550,000 10 + 4 15th 1,850,000 10 + 5 16th 2,200,000 10 + 6 This matched up with the Monk getting a 6 sider for HD. |
|
|
|
Post by Malchor on Mar 14, 2023 7:17:42 GMT -6
The Druid raises another question. as a sub-class that is a mixed class (pulling from Cleric and MU), if the XP progression is based on the MU, then when using the Greyhawk HD system, it seems the Druid should use a 4 sided die, just as the Monk which, while a Cleric sub-class uses the Thief XP progression and HD.
Is there a place that spells out the HD type for the Druid using the Greyhawk HD system? Judges Guild gave the Druid a d6 and Monk a d4 as spelled out.
|
|
|
|
Post by Malchor on Mar 14, 2023 13:07:57 GMT -6
I now see where I was confused with MU accumulated HD.
The patter is, where n = number of HD:
n + 1 pip
n + 2 pips
n + 3 pips (once you hit three pips, you reset, see next)
(n=n+1) + 1 pip (we add one more HD and reset the pips back to +1, continue until you have +3 pips)
11th level is the Title Level, the level that sets the stage for the pattern—note, it sets the stage, it is not part of the pattern, so:
12th: 8 + 2 (adding +1 pip)
13th: 8 + 3 (adding +1 pip, making that +2 since the starting point. We see a +3, but we do not reset as we only added two)
14th: 8 + 4 (adding +1 pip, making that +3 since the starting point, triggering adding a hit die and resetting the + pips)
15th: 9 + 1
16th: 9 + 2
17th: 9 + 3 (time to add dice nad reset the + pips on 18th level)
18th: 10 + 1
19th: 10 + 2
20th: 10 + 3
21st: 11 + 1
22nd: 11 + 2
Still not clear on MU Fighting Capability, not seeing a pattern to repeat either M&M or the Greyhawk revised progression. Since Greyhawk makes one change, guess simply using that is a solution, though I'd still to see a pattern. The Cleric is easy same for four levels then increase by one. However the MU after (not incuding) 11th level is same for two times, increase, same for two times, increase, same for three times, increase, then not sure. For the Greyhawk version, same for two times, increase, same for two times, increase, same for FIVE times, increase, then we see only the next two level as the same. It needs to decide to be the same for 2 or 4 times before increaseing. The pattern does not look to be tied to the HD progression.
Is there something I'm not seeing?
I'm landing on Gary's original intent was to increase MU FC by one ever two levels. In Greyhawk, rather than fixing the pattern, it was purposely nerfed as the stated goal is right on the page to make fighters more powerful and weaken magic user—who also got more powerful spell in the bargain—so need to break out a tiny violin for them. Only for my need to the pattern Gary hinted at.
|
|
|
|
Post by Finarvyn on Mar 14, 2023 15:00:08 GMT -6
This is a great thread, by the way. I love going back to 50-year-old documents and trying to figure out what was intended.  I have two things to toss into the discussion: (1) The "8+4" is the one that bugs me the most, as it clearly violates the patterns seen in all of the other examples. (2) As to the +300,000 I think that Gronan (when he posted here) verified that sequence in a thread on the topic. He also confirmed the other XP numbers for other classes in that same thread. Search for "Deleted," which is the name he posts by now. Wait, maybe he took his toys and went home....  I've tried a project like this before and maybe have my notes around somewhere. I suspect they will look a lot like what you have created, as your assumptions seem pretty solid. My only real issue is that at some point I wonder if the "Vancian" system starts to break down since wizards start to max out all of the numbers on the spell charts. Greyhawk extends this, of course, but we still reach a point where a wizard can cast what he wants pretty much whenever he wants. |
|
|
|
Post by Desparil on Mar 14, 2023 15:26:51 GMT -6
This is a great thread, by the way. I love going back to 50-year-old documents and trying to figure out what was intended. I have two things to toss into the discussion: (1) The "8+4" is the one that bugs me the most, as it clearly violates the patterns seen in all of the other examples. (2) As to the +300,000 I think that Gronan (when he posted here) verified that sequence in a thread on the topic. He also confirmed the other XP numbers for other classes in that same thread. Search for "Deleted," which is the name he posts by now. Wait, maybe he took his toys and went home.... I've tried a project like this before and maybe have my notes around somewhere. I suspect they will look a lot like what you have created, as your assumptions seem pretty solid. My only real issue is that at some point I wonder if the "Vancian" system starts to break down since wizards start to max out all of the numbers on the spell charts. Greyhawk extends this, of course, but we still reach a point where a wizard can cast what he wants pretty much whenever he wants. That post (and Gronan's others) still exist, he deleted his account but didn't individually delete his posts. You can't look up "Deleted" using the "Who To Search" function as far as I'm aware, since that's just a placeholder and not actually a member's name, but if you just use the default "What To Search" and look for "gronanofsimmerya" you should find the threads that he posted in because of other users quoting him or addressing him directly. |
|
|
|
Post by Zenopus on Mar 14, 2023 17:51:35 GMT -6
The thread with Gronan's comments is the one I linked to above, and also bumped.
|
|
|
|
Post by Finarvyn on Mar 14, 2023 18:11:23 GMT -6
This is a great thread, by the way. I love going back to 50-year-old documents and trying to figure out what was intended. I have two things to toss into the discussion: (1) The "8+4" is the one that bugs me the most, as it clearly violates the patterns seen in all of the other examples. (2) As to the +300,000 I think that Gronan (when he posted here) verified that sequence in a thread on the topic. He also confirmed the other XP numbers for other classes in that same thread. Search for "Deleted," which is the name he posts by now. Wait, maybe he took his toys and went home.... I've tried a project like this before and maybe have my notes around somewhere. I suspect they will look a lot like what you have created, as your assumptions seem pretty solid. My only real issue is that at some point I wonder if the "Vancian" system starts to break down since wizards start to max out all of the numbers on the spell charts. Greyhawk extends this, of course, but we still reach a point where a wizard can cast what he wants pretty much whenever he wants. That post (and Gronan's others) still exist, he deleted his account but didn't individually delete his posts. You can't look up "Deleted" using the "Who To Search" function as far as I'm aware, since that's just a placeholder and not actually a member's name, but if you just use the default "What To Search" and look for "gronanofsimmerya" you should find the threads that he posted in because of other users quoting him or addressing him directly. I was aware of this, but was trying to be cute.  Thanks for the clarification. |
|
|
|
Post by Desparil on Mar 14, 2023 20:20:01 GMT -6
That post (and Gronan's others) still exist, he deleted his account but didn't individually delete his posts. You can't look up "Deleted" using the "Who To Search" function as far as I'm aware, since that's just a placeholder and not actually a member's name, but if you just use the default "What To Search" and look for "gronanofsimmerya" you should find the threads that he posted in because of other users quoting him or addressing him directly. I was aware of this, but was trying to be cute. Thanks for the clarification. Gotcha, I didn't want to assume what you did and didn't remember about the nuts and bolts of the board since you stepped back from admin duties some time ago now, and at the same time I wanted to give any newbies real, useful instructions on how to find his old posts. No harm, no foul, though! |
|
|
|
Post by Malchor on Mar 15, 2023 15:36:57 GMT -6
I typed this twice and it was eaten by my browser.
With XP and HD progression solved, that leaves FC.
For the Fighter the FC progression after Lord at 9th level is easy to spot:
Superhero + 1
Superhero + 1
Superhero + 2
Superhero + 2
Same for two levels, then +1 pip.
For the Cleric the FC progression after Patriarch at 8th level is easy to spot:
Superhero -1
Superhero -1
Superhero -1
Superhero -1
Superhero
Superhero
Superhero
Superhero
Same for four levels, then +1 pip.
For the MU FC progression is not clear after 11th level Wizard.
Using only M&M, it looks like this:
Wizard
Wizard
Wizard + 1
Wizard + 1
Wizard + 2
Wizard + 2
Wizard + 2
Wizard + 3
2 levels the same, then bump +1; 2 levels the same, then bump +1; 3 levels the same, then bump +1; then?
Maybe Gary made a mistake at 20th level and the pattern is 2 levels the same, then bump +1. OK, mistakes happen.
Then in Greyhawk Rob and Gary give us this FC progression for the MU after 11th level Wizard:
Wizard
Wizard
Wizard + 1
Wizard + 1
Wizard + 2
Wizard + 2
Wizard + 2
Wizard + 2
Wizard + 2
Wizard + 3
Wizard + 3
2 levels the same, then bump +1; 2 levels the same, then bump +1; 5 levels the same, then bump +1; then? Yikes!
Does anyone have a clear idea for what the pattern is? Or perhaps the opinion there just isn't one.
|
|
I have two things to toss into the discussion:
Thanks for the clarification.