The Six Spawn

[bluskreem]

I have a few questions about the six great races of Shub-Niggurath (B’yakhee, Deep One, The Great Race, Mi-Go, The Primordial Ones, Shoggoths)

1) Besides having terrestrial origins, what are the major differneces between the Carcosa version of the big six and the novella versions?
2) Do these races interact? How likely am I to see a (Deep One) in the town pub?
3) If these are the six great races, where did Snake-men, and Humans come from?

I've got my own ideas about the answers, and I'd understand if Geoffrey wanted to leave these questions unanswered (and thus allow a sandbox approach to the setting,) but since I plan to use Deep ones in my supplement I was hoping to get some ideas.

[geoffrey]

Those are great questions! My favorite thing about Carcosa is Shub-Niggurath and its spawn. Following are some notes regarding the six regular spawn of Shub-Niggurath and how they differ from Lovecraft's descriptions.

Primordial Ones: Their mighty civilization is long, long gone. All that remains are ruins and scattered artifacts. The Primordial Ones that currently exist on Carcosa are in small bands of 1-10, a majority of them without the benefit of high-tech. They hold all other intelligent life in utter contempt. They think everything should be their slaves. They especially hate the Shoggoths. Unlike Lovecraft's version, Primordial Ones on Carcosa are psionic.

Shoggoths: Lovecraft was pretty vague about these things. They obviously are incapable of forming a civilization. They utterly hate the Primordial Ones. Shoggoths will occasionally cooperate with Deep Ones, but other than that do not like the other regular spawn.

Mi-Go: Lovecraft's Mi-Go are brilliant scientists. Not so Carcosa's. They have an average I. Q. score of about 70. They never established a civilization, instead having a level of culture similar to that of cavemen. They are psionic, however. They do not interact with the other five main spawn.

The Great Race: Like the Primordial Ones, the mighty civilization of the Great Race is long gone. Only ruins and scattered artifacts remain. The remaining members of the Great Race live in small groups of 1-12, and they only rarely have high-tech. They tend to avoid the other main spawn.

The Deep Ones: These are about 50% Lovecraftian and about 50% Kuo-Toa. Lovecraft's Deep Ones lived in cities found only on ocean shelves. Carcosa's live throughout the ocean, as well as in damp caverns. Lovecraft's Deep Ones lived in mighty cities. Those on Carcosa live in small communities of no more than 100. Also, Lovecraft's Deep Ones could wipe-out humanity if they cared to. Carcosa's Deep Ones (like the Kuo-Toa) are a race in steep decline. They avoid the other main spawn of Shub-Niggurath, except for occasionally employing Shoggoths. Some particularly degenerate groups will even worship a Shoggoth.

When Deep Ones interact with humans, contact is minimal. You'll never find a Deep One in a pub, for example. The Deep Ones interact with humans only to spread the cult of the Old Ones (expecially of Cthulhu) and (less often) to interbreed with human women. Such women are sometimes outright raped, and other times pressured into it by their society. Some of the most jaded and perverse of women, bored with human males, actually welcome the exotic embraces of the Deep Ones. In any case, there is no question of "relationships" between the Deep Ones and human women. It's just sex. The Deep Ones flap from their lairs, do the deed, and then slink back.

B'yakhee: These are a creation of August Derleth, and I don't remember them being anything other than magic transports that come at the call of a whistle. In any case, they never formed civilizations. They are fanatically loyal servants of Hastur, and will certainly not come like a dog to a whistle. They serve humans only when it furthers Hastur's goals, or when forced by sorcery to do so. They are psionic. They are aloof from the other six main spawn.


In short, the only interaction between any of the six main spawn is between Deep Ones and Shoggoths, and that is rather rare. None of them are numerous or widely influential. They are all well past their heydays. Eventual extinction seems their lot.

The Primordial Ones used to conduct big biological experiments. Undoubtedly these experiments created the semi-intelligent humanoid snakes that later (after the destruction of the civilization of the Primordial Ones) evolved into the Snake-Men.

The Primordial Ones also undoubtedly created the man-apes from which the races of humans were much later bred by the Snake-Men.

I hope all this answers your questions, bluskreem. Of course, all the above is true only of my own Carcosa campaign. Your (and others') Carcosa campaign might very well differ.

[Melan]

Nov 25, 2008 23:55:06 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Shoggoths: Lovecraft was pretty vague about these things. They obviously are incapable of forming a civilization. They utterly hate the Primordial Ones. Shoggoths will occasionally cooperate with Deep Ones, but other than that do not like the other regular spawn.

Shoggots also appear more humanoid to me in Carcosa as opposed to their HPL (or Chaosium Call of Cthulhu?) depiction as gigantic formless entities made up of bubbles/small globules (?).

[geoffrey]

In my mind's eye, Carcosa is almost entirely illustrated by Erol Otus. The two exceptions are:

1. Russ Nicholson illustrates the undead.
2. Dave Trampier illustrates the humans.

Go here for Erol Otus's illustrations of the Cthulhu Mythos:
www.angelfire.com/extreme/kengage/cthulhu/index.html

[geoffrey]

All this raises the question of why the six main spawn of Shub-Niggurath are in steep decline.

Please note that, according to the description of Shub-Niggurath in Supplement V: CARCOSA, Shub-Niggurath generates these six spawn only when it is under attack. Otherwise, Shub-Niggurath generates the unique, random spawn.

How often is Shub-Niggurath under attack? Virtually never. Attacking Shub-Niggurath is generally not a good idea.

But well over a billion years ago, the Old Ones were involved in a massive conflict. This conflict resulted in the imprisonment of Cthulhu and Hastur. During this conflict Shub-Niggurath generated untold vast numbers of the six main spawn. In the aftermath of this war of the Old Ones, the then-very-numberous Primordial Ones and the Great Race established their mighty civilizations. These civilizations lasted for hundreds of millions of years.

However, warfare amongst the six main spawn (as well as the fact that they do not reproduce themselves, with the exception of Deep Ones by interbreeding with humans--and humans did not exist this far back) ultimately reduced their number to the small remnant today.

In my Carcosa campaign, anyway. The historical records of the Primordial Ones, and of the Great Race, and of the Snake-Men are so vast (covering hundreds of millions of years), so fragmentary, and so contradictory, that who knows where the truth lies?

[bluskreem]

Thanks a lot, this will indeed help out. I like the insight about The Spawn being more numerous in prehistory due to conflict.

[geoffrey]

Nov 25, 2008 23:55:06 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

None of them [Primordial Ones, the Great Race, Shoggoths, Mi-Go, B'yakhee, and Deep Ones] are numerous or widely influential. They are all well past their heydays. Eventual extinction seems their lot.

I hasten to add that the random spawn (as opposed to the rare six main spawn) of Shub-Niggurath are anything but rare. That Old One is spawning those weird abominations at a rate of about one PER SECOND, and that's been going on for billions of years.

Some Good Samaritan needs to nuke Mount Voormith'adreth.

[korgoth]

Nov 30, 2008 11:02:02 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

I hasten to add that the random spawn (as opposed to the rare six main spawn) of Shub-Niggurath are anything but rare. That Old One is spawning those weird abominations at a rate of about one PER SECOND, and that's been going on for billions of years.

That has some interesting implications to the Carcosan ecology (I hope "the E word" isn't a bad one!). Shubby breaks that little conversation law (one assumes... or maybe she consumes junk on one world/dimension and spews it out somewhere else, or maybe Shubby and some other voracious type like Azatoth are really two parts of the same critter) and so you've got an endless stream of weird matter being ejected into Carcosa. Obviously, Shub eats a lot of her own young, and they probably eat each other a lot of times. But the ones that make it out of her lair and/or Mount V get introduced into the world and they're hungry. I imagine Carcosa as a fairly barren place to begin with... so one expects that, given a geologic time scale, Shub spawn would eventually eat everything else in the world (barring other interventions).

Of course, given that Shub has been doing this for billions of years and Carcosa isn't even close to total infestation, it seems like that is a rather distant scenario in any event.

[geoffrey]

Nov 30, 2008 16:53:26 GMT -6 korgoth said:

I imagine Carcosa as a fairly barren place to begin with...

In my imagination Carcosa is indeed on the barren side. I typically picture the landscape on the cover of the AD&D Deities & Demigods Cyclopedia for much of Carcosa, especially for the Blighted Lands.

As for ecology, Carcosa makes no ecological sense whatsoever. What the hell, so long as it's fun! ;D