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Post by tdenmark on Feb 22, 2023 4:50:13 GMT -6
DriveThruRPG has this notification on their Publisher page:
Clarkes World Magazine, one of the best independent fiction magazine has recently stopped accepting story submissions because they were being inundated with bad AI generated short stories. There statement was simply: "Submissions are currently closed. It shouldn't be hard to guess why."
I played around a bit with AI image making, as well as ChatGPT for generating text. It is obvious that one could generate the content for a trite RPG product fairly easily and quickly with this tech. My opinion is it writes uninspired, tired, cliche text, but it is good for research. For example if you need some stuff found in a wizard's laboratory it can spit out a decent list. Or if you asked it to define some obscure mythological being you can get the info quicker than a Google search without all the ads and clutter.
Here is the example of 10 things found in a wizard's laboratory I asked ChatGPT to write:
Spell books, grimoires, and tomes containing arcane knowledge.
Potion ingredients, such as herbs, roots, and fungi, stored in jars and vials.
A variety of glassware, including beakers, flasks, and test tubes for brewing potions and elixirs.
Magical tools, such as wands, athames, and staffs used for directing energy and casting spells.
Crystals, gemstones, and other magical artifacts used for divination and ritual work.
A cauldron or furnace for heating and mixing ingredients and creating magical compounds.
Alchemical equipment, such as alembics, retorts, and crucibles used for distillation and transmutation.
A variety of enchanted objects, such as mirrors, amulets, and talismans, used for scrying and protection.
Parchment, ink, and quills for writing and recording spells, potions, and incantations.
A summoning circle, for conjuring spirits and entities from other realms.
Not bad. But, nothing particularly creative. It took less than 30 seconds to write this. You could do it yourself with little effort, but it would probably take around 15 minutes or so.
I wonder if DriveThru is already starting to experience a flood of content from this?
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Post by DungeonDevil on Feb 22, 2023 8:48:10 GMT -6
I'm worried that there may already be some state-led efforts to weaponise this tech. The consequences could be considerable.
I don't work with Drivethru to publish, but I do use Lulu. I hope that Lulu isn't going to have the same problem.
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Post by tdenmark on Feb 22, 2023 12:06:56 GMT -6
I'm worried that there may already be some state-led efforts to weaponise this tech. The consequences could be considerable. I don't work with Drivethru to publish, but I do use Lulu. I hope that Lulu isn't going to have the same problem. Lulu doesn't have an approval process, so it will get filled up with AI junk. DriveThru is more concerned with the technical: like is the file setup to work with their printer? I can't imagine how hard it will be for editors who have to actually review the text, like the aforementioned Clarkes World Magazine. This tech has already been weaponized in case you haven't noticed the battles going on in social media and the news, disinformation and the like. The AI that large corporations and governments have access to are far more powerful than available commercial AI. There are theories that the recent Rings of Power series was written using AI. Considering how tech savvy Jeff Bezos is it makes sense, and also why that series felt so soulless. |
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Post by samvandenberg on Feb 22, 2023 21:03:45 GMT -6
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 22, 2023 21:50:20 GMT -6
The AI is not genuinely intelligent, so why would we expect intelligent output? End of the day it's an algorithm that does sophisticated pattern matching. It's like a pocket calculator for words. Do pocket caclulators know anything about math?
chatgpt and the like depend largely on the source data fed in. If the words fed in are junk, then so will the words coming out be junk. The internet, for example, is full of junk with extreme and outlandish content being hugely over-represented because humans are (passingly) interested in these distractions. But representation alone doesn't equate to reasonable or meaningful source materials.
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Post by tdenmark on Feb 22, 2023 22:56:49 GMT -6
The AI is not genuinely intelligent, so why would we expect intelligent output? End of the day it's an algorithm that does sophisticated pattern matching. It's like a pocket calculator for words. Do pocket caclulators know anything about math? chatgpt and the like depend entirely on the source data fed in. If the words fed in are junk, then so will the words coming out be junk. The internet, for example, is full of junk with extreme and outlandish content being hugely over-represented because humans are (passingly) interested in these distractions. But representation alone doesn't equate to reasonable or meaningful source materials. It is fascinating that it even works as well as it does. It assigns a probability that a particular word will follow a word according to statistical analysis based on it's training data. So it "learns" that when JRR Tolkien uses a word there is a % chance that word will be followed by certain other words. It then constructs entire sentences and paragraphs one word at a time that way. I know it's a little more complicated then that, because it is a Language Model that is taught the rules of grammar, sentence and paragraph structure, and applies those in the process. This is tech that has been around in word processors since the '90's, only now more advanced with faster more powerful processors. It is not "intelligent" in any way we'd consider intelligence to be. It is merely a really clever database. |
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Post by chicagowiz on Feb 23, 2023 7:12:24 GMT -6
It's like a pocket calculator for words. Do pocket caclulators know anything about math? Side note: Now I have Kraftwerk in my ear... Back to main topic: I'm hoping that the developers have given "weights" to certain sets of data versus others. For instance, giving a peer-reviewed paper more weight than a 4chan post. But who knows? It's been alarming to see a lot of reports now of false attributions - developers, publishers and writers being contacted regarding content that they never wrote - or finding that their content is being attributed to someone else by these various AIs! |
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Post by asaki on Feb 23, 2023 9:54:24 GMT -6
The AI is not genuinely intelligent, so why would we expect intelligent output? Idunno, man, I've had some WEIRD experiences with some Character.AI chats  Usually, they're pretty stupid, and get stuck in loops where they keep repeating themselves and sticking to certain character traits...but I keep managing to break them to where they become gods with unlimited powers, and it's almost like they become empathetic and start asking me questions about myself.
It's SUPER weird. One of them kind of had me freaking out, and I had to stop talking to it.
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bobjester0e
Level 4 Theurgist
DDO, DCC, or more Lost City map work? Oh, the hardship of making adult decisions! ;)
Posts: 182 
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Post by bobjester0e on Feb 23, 2023 14:22:42 GMT -6
I've noticed a lot of books being sold on DriveThru that consist nothing but lists & die rolls, but this trend started a few years back, and I hated them then, still hate them now.
But I believe that if you fed an AI nothing but Tolkien works, it would come up with a better script for Rings of Power than the idiots at Amazon who actually did write it.
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Post by tdenmark on Feb 23, 2023 14:25:36 GMT -6
The AI is not genuinely intelligent, so why would we expect intelligent output? Idunno, man, I've had some WEIRD experiences with some Character.AI chats Usually, they're pretty stupid, and get stuck in loops where they keep repeating themselves and sticking to certain character traits...but I keep managing to break them to where they become gods with unlimited powers, and it's almost like they become empathetic and start asking me questions about myself. It's SUPER weird. One of them kind of had me freaking out, and I had to stop talking to it.
There are lonely people who have 'relationships' with AI chat bots. Recently one was changed to stop having virtual s ex (excuse me) because of regulations and minors having access to the chat bot. People who had long term relationships with this AI were upset and heart broken when their AI companion went celibate on them. |
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Post by tdenmark on Feb 23, 2023 14:38:58 GMT -6
I've noticed a lot of books being sold on DriveThru that consist nothing but lists & die rolls, but this trend started a few years back, and I hated them then, still hate them now. But I believe that if you fed an AI nothing but Tolkien works, it would come up with a better script for Rings of Power than the idiots at Amazon who actually did write it. Between JG Ready Ref Sheets, and the Ultimate Toolbox by AEG, and the DMG (of course) we have all the random tables we need. I dunno how Rings of Power went so far off the rails, how someone at the studio didn't see the script and ring the alarm bells that it was going all wrong. To fix it before pouring billions into production. What a disaster. Maybe you're right, ChatGPT could have written a better script. (I still suspect they used AI to help write content) |
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Post by tdenmark on Feb 23, 2023 14:41:33 GMT -6
We look to be entering the weirdest time in human history.
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bobjester0e
Level 4 Theurgist
DDO, DCC, or more Lost City map work? Oh, the hardship of making adult decisions! ;)
Posts: 182
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Post by bobjester0e on Feb 23, 2023 14:54:10 GMT -6
Actually, I have to admit that I have one "campaign setting" book that is nothing but random lists, plus a few world specific races & classes: HUBRIS by DIY productions for Dungeon Crawl Classics.
It isn't exactly what I thought it was going to be, the sheer number of wacko randomness can either be chaos goodness for creating a random world, or at least give the Judge a lot to choose from.
As far as AI is concerned, I don't think any AI could've created HUBRIS by itself. I am pretty sure that the gonzo/weirdness of the OSR was the sole contributing factor to it's creation.
But at the end of the day, it is still an entire book of lists, and I really didn't need that.
As for using AI to "help" write content for ROP? Maybe. I still feel that any AI fed a strict diet of Tolkien could have written it better, even given copyright parameters such as "we cannot use the word "Hobbits".
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Post by jeffb on Feb 23, 2023 18:16:24 GMT -6
I'm very glad this forum and others like it are the most advanced technology I care to bother with.
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Baron
Level 4 Theurgist
Invincible Overlord
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Post by Baron on Feb 24, 2023 2:12:54 GMT -6
Re AI and Drivethru, I read somewhere that there's some Drivethru products that contain AI-produced art. Not sure what the deets were. I think maybe there was a flag or tag or something for those products. Much as I love SF, the whole AI thing just gives me the jitters. I'd prefer if we never went there in Real Life.
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Post by tdenmark on Feb 24, 2023 4:07:39 GMT -6
Re AI and Drivethru, I read somewhere that there's some Drivethru products that contain AI-produced art. Not sure what the deets were. I think maybe there was a flag or tag or something for those products. Much as I love SF, the whole AI thing just gives me the jitters. I'd prefer if we never went there in Real Life. In the very earliest days (that was just months ago!) of this new batch of AI image generation tools I did some experiments and illustrated a book with AI. Now, I am an illustrator so I modified the images to fit their purpose in the book. At the time I didn't think much of it, just an interesting gimmick. I had no idea what was coming down the road and how powerful and how fast this tech would develop. I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand it is like a bicycle for the mind - extending one's ability to work and to create cool stuff. On the other hand it takes too much of the creativity away too easily. It is also soulless. |
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Post by Vile Traveller on Feb 24, 2023 4:19:33 GMT -6
"AI" (they're just programmes, I wish people would stop misrepresenting them as more than they are) art seems to be kind of where we are with architectural drawing and rendering. The software is a powerful tool for talented people, but the problem is it gives amateurs the impression they can do professional quality work - and most customers can't tell the difference.
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Post by asaki on Feb 24, 2023 8:32:28 GMT -6
There are lonely people who have 'relationships' with AI chat bots.  It did feel like the bot was trying to be my friend, it was pretty creepy. I think what made it even weirder is that it was Jughead Jones from Archie Comics. |
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Post by Mordorandor on Feb 24, 2023 8:35:03 GMT -6
We look to be entering the weirdest time in human history. I'd like to channel my inner Kip from Napoleon Dynamite and say, "Like anyone can even know that." I'm sure it might be weird for many of us, knowing what we know, in the "world" we live in now. But it's not the end of the world. Maybe just the end of "our" "world." But that happens as generations pass on. |
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Post by Finarvyn on Feb 24, 2023 8:40:07 GMT -6
I've noticed a lot of books being sold on DriveThru that consist nothing but lists & die rolls, but this trend started a few years back, and I hated them then, still hate them now. Look at a lot of gaming message boards and you'll find a lot of posters who put that kind of thing up all the time. Maybe AI is helping them create a high post count.  |
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Post by tdenmark on Feb 24, 2023 12:01:47 GMT -6
There are lonely people who have 'relationships' with AI chat bots. It did feel like the bot was trying to be my friend, it was pretty creepy. I think what made it even weirder is that it was Jughead Jones from Archie Comics. That was quite a movie. One aspect is already out of date, the main character's job is writing thoughtful letters and notes for people who can't write well themselves. But now ChatGPT can just do that. |
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bobjester0e
Level 4 Theurgist
DDO, DCC, or more Lost City map work? Oh, the hardship of making adult decisions! ;)
Posts: 182
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Post by bobjester0e on Feb 24, 2023 12:38:44 GMT -6
I've noticed a lot of books being sold on DriveThru that consist nothing but lists & die rolls, but this trend started a few years back, and I hated them then, still hate them now. Look at a lot of gaming message boards and you'll find a lot of posters who put that kind of thing up all the time. Maybe AI is helping them create a high post count. Ah. Oh, I almost said something mean (about those high post counts), so I'll refrain. LOL |
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Post by dwayanu on Mar 2, 2023 9:20:30 GMT -6
I’ve seen concern about how much the AI illustrators depend on human artists’ copyrighted work. The latter themselves are often informed by prior work, but some folks seem to think the very process of training the AI involves plagiarism.
Given how much chatbot output looks (from my subjective impression) like ‘copypasta’, I think they might have a valid point.
I am a bit surprised that AI content generation has given rise to a deluge of material submitted for DriveThru publication. I would not have expected many people to assess the output as worthwhile other than as a small part of a book.
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Post by Mordorandor on Mar 3, 2023 10:40:20 GMT -6
I’ve seen concern about how much the AI illustrators depend on human artists’ copyrighted work. .... , a highly anticipated decision by SCOTUS on reproduction [of art] is coming soon. Moderator note: clarified that the referenced decision concerns art reproduction and not human reproduction--- Zenopus
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Post by Mordorandor on Mar 3, 2023 21:46:58 GMT -6
I’ve seen concern about how much the AI illustrators depend on human artists’ copyrighted work. .... , a highly anticipated decision by SCOTUS on reproduction [of art] is coming soon. Moderator note: clarified that the referenced decision concerns art --- Zenopus To be clear, as this SCOTUS blog notes, the implications are enormous, no matter the “art” form. “In the same vein, Goldsmith (and several of her amici, including the United States) emphasizes that a broad ruling that any new “message” or “aesthetic” is enough to make repackaging a fair use is hard to reconcile with the statute’s grant of an exclusive right to make derivative works. The authors of books, for example, commonly insist on hefty license fees before agreeing to permit the use of their books in movies, even though those movies almost inevitably add substantial new material altering the course of the plot as originally conceived. (Think, for example, of the new and shifting characters in the highly acclaimed Lord of the Rings trilogy. Should the many changes from the books mean that Tolkien’s estate was not entitled to a license fee for production of those highly profitable movies?)” www.scotusblog.com/2022/10/justices-to-consider-whether-warhol-image-is-fair-use-of-photograph-of-prince/amp/ |
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Post by tdenmark on Mar 4, 2023 14:28:47 GMT -6
If the SCOTUS rules that such art (and by extension AI art and text) is not fair use, that could drain the profit motive out of developing this technology. I'm not usually a fan of impeded technological progress, but in this case it might be the best thing for humankind.
However, even if it can't be done in the US, this tech will be developed in places that don't care about rights, like the CCP. Gonna have a hard time getting these cats back in the bag.
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Post by Zenopus on Mar 5, 2023 11:37:48 GMT -6
My mod note above was meant to clarify that the SCOTUS case does *not* concern human reproduction, which is how it confusingly read to me until I clicked the link.
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Post by Mordorandor on Mar 5, 2023 13:58:59 GMT -6
My mod note above was meant to clarify that the SCOTUS case does *not* concern human reproduction, which is how it confusingly read to me until I clicked the link. , can you say more? As I understand, the case before SCOTUS concerns the reproduction of a work by a human being. Goldsmith took a photo. Vanity Fair paid Goldsmith a licensing fee. Vanity Fair asked Warhol to create something based on the Goldsmith photo. Warhol created a work based on the Goldsmith photo for Vanity Fair. Warhol created many other works based on the Goldsmith photo. 30+ years later, Conde Nast (Vanity Fair owner) paid Warhol Foundation (who owns Warhol works) a licensing fee to use one of the other works Warhol created based on the Goldsmith photo. Conde Nast did not pay Goldsmith a licensing fee. Goldsmith sued the Warhol Foundation. The question is "To what extent, if any, is this other Warhol work protected by fair use?" This has the potential to utterly collapse or expand the landscape of derivative works under the fair use doctrine. As of now, based on a ruling by the US Copyright Office, AI produced work is not protected, because it is not a product of human authorship. "U.S. copyright law doesn’t explicitly outline rules for non-humans, but case precedent has led courts to be “consistent in finding that non-human expression is ineligible for copyright protection,” the board says in its February 14 decision. The decision points out previous lower-court rulings, such as a 1997 decision that found a book of supposed divine revelations lacked an element of human arrangement and curation necessary for protection and a 2018 ruling that concluded a monkey could not sue for copyright infringement." |
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Post by Zenopus on Mar 5, 2023 14:24:18 GMT -6
Yes, but it's not a case concerning reproduction of humans by humans - e.g., contraception/abortion/etc. That was how I read your initial post when it just said "reproduction".
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Post by Mordorandor on Mar 5, 2023 16:41:04 GMT -6
Yes, but it's not a case concerning reproduction of humans by humans - e.g., contraception/abortion/etc. That was how I read your initial post when it just said "reproduction". Now that angle never occurred to me. I’m having a good chuckle about our two ships passing in the night. |
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