I knew chain wasn’t noisy, but I had no idea…

[machfront]

youtu.be/acGEyWUvxf8

Heheh.
I’m very tempted to allow thieves to wear chain mail now. 😁

Indeed, I could imagine a ‘fantasy world’ thief would have a chain shirt that covers a tiny bit less, is more tight fitting (so as to do away with even the slight ‘ccsshh ccsshh’ sound we hear in the video from the loose sleeves), and would weigh ever so slightly less.

Considering deftness, I’m not sure such would get in the way of many of the thieves abilities in a measurably significant way insofar as the abstract nature of the rules.

Of course…then again…what thief would not wear chain, then?
And it might chafe against the archetype of the fantasy thief.

Also, the Tunnels & Trolls rogue, despite not being a D&D thief analog, is still regarded in T&T circles as being the sneaky, thieving sort. Rogues (as Wizards), have no armor restrictions at all in that game.

I dunno.
Tempted, though.

[hamurai]

Often there's a distinction between chain mail and chain shirt - in the video, we clearly see a shirt. I guess moving with mail on the legs would be a little noisier. But still, I've often wondered if bad-quality leather armour wouldn't be more noisy, actually.

[machfront]

Yeah. Though I’ve absolute zero evidence of mine own outside of acquaintances at Ren Fest wearing leather or chain….after I watched this, it did occur to me how creaky and loud the leather stuff really was. Heh.

But, again, it’s fantasy…it’s a game…it’s fair (or fun) to assume the best for whichever.

Plus, I take a super wide and open ‘view’ as to what applies for each AC. Heh. Again….ya know…for fun.
As I stated in my MeWe post on this vid, I view the simple, slight stuff Val Kilmer wears as Madmartigan in the latter portion of the film Willow as qualifying 100% as D&D’s “plate mail”, so yeah. There is wherein my view lay. 🙂

[hamurai]

I had to check Google for a picture, it's been too long that I saw the film. But yeah, that's pretty much plate mail in my games, too. You probably can't take a lot from that armour and still have it count as plate mail, though

[Starbeard]

Boiled leather can be pretty noisy. Chain can be pretty quiet, and in general I do think stealth attempts should be allowed while wearing it; but also it isn't about just being quiet. The rubbing of chain against each other is a unique timbre, and creatures including humans are very good at picking out unusual sounds even if they are being masked by louder 'normal' sounds. I've had situations where people were moving around at night in chain, trying not to wake others up, and it's really obvious not just that someone's there, but that they are wearing chain.

But boiled leather armor is even more obvious most of the time, and more impeding on dexterity. Of course, fantasy leather armor isn't really boiled leather, it's generally envisioned as soft suede, so I don't worry about it. Same with chain, in fantasy visuals it's typically just a thin shirt like the lady in the video wears, but also in-game it functions abstractly as the next choice upward in the balance between protection vs mobility. So either way I just let the rules more or less stand as they are. I don't mind visualizing leather armor as a thin chain shirt if that helps with the verisimilitude.

[waysoftheearth]

yeah, i think this leads pretty swiftly to the convenient abstraction of light, medium, and heavy armor, which neatly accommodates a light mail shirt, or a heavy coat of double mail with steel plates riveted over it... no fuss.

[dwayanu]

From a game perspective, if thieves seem underpowered then a better AC — especially at low levels when magical boosts are less likely — may be desirable.

For AD&D, Gygax both expanded the AC range and plugged in more armor types (then in UA added true full plate types from the late medieval/early-modern period). I don’t like all that, but some distinctions may be worthwhile.

There’s certainly a difference between a mail shirt (never mind a lighter one) and a full hauberk and/or trews.

The Roman lorica segmentata remained in use for some time after the introduction of mail, and I think could be made more stealthy with felt between the pieces. My understanding is that the industrial base to make it became in the Dark Age scarce compared with what was needful for mail — but that’s not the situation if your campaign readily provides steel plate!

Again, it’s not for nothing that brigandine got its name. (Depiction of it in art may have inspired the “studded leather” trope in fantasy.) I think it’s basically a fancier version of a knight’s “coat of plates,” the latter typically worn beneath another layer of panoply.

The Greek linothorax is popularly depicted as made of multiple layers of linen, approximating modern canvas, but hardened leather seems more likely to have been usual. That said, someone with enough money for the imported material might well have used it. For stealth, one would want to omit the usual metal scales protecting the abdomen.

Once ironworking techniques are advanced enough, a bronze helmet or cuirass is an expensive status symbol, not an inferior protection.

[howandwhy99]

In this case I don't think the rules are about verisimilitude. Thieves are proficient in armor according to their combat ability in the game. Not something related to real world expectations.

So, 3 plate for d10 fighting-men, 5 chain for d8 clerics, 7 leather for d6 thieves, and 9 unarmored for d4 magic-users.

I could see thieves proficient in an AC 6 version of some specialty armor, but at prohibitive cost. Like with plate mail at early levels.

[waysoftheearth]

"thieves are generally not meant to fight,"

A NEW CHARACTER TYPE FOR DUNGEONS & DRAGONS: THE THIEF!
by Gary Gygax
The Great Plains Game Players Newsletter #9 (c.June 1974)

[Punkrabbitt]

Feb 15, 2023 21:59:50 GMT -6 howandwhy99 said:

In this case I don't think the rules are about verisimilitude. Thieves are proficient in armor according to their combat ability in the game. Not something related to real world expectations.

So, 3 plate for d10 fighting-men, 5 chain for d8 clerics, 7 leather for d6 thieves, and 9 unarmored for d4 magic-users.

I could see thieves proficient in an AC 6 version of some specialty armor, but at prohibitive cost. Like with plate mail at early levels.

This is kind of brilliant, really.

[Vile Traveller]

Feb 15, 2023 23:16:11 GMT -6 Punkrabbitt said:

Feb 15, 2023 21:59:50 GMT -6 howandwhy99 said:

3 plate for d10 fighting-men, 5 chain for d8 clerics, 7 leather for d6 thieves, and 9 unarmored for d4 magic-users.

This is kind of brilliant, really.

I restricted clerics to mail in my first draft of BLUEHOLME for this reason, but stuck with the RAW as it's a direct clone. But I would definitely use this house rule.

[waysoftheearth]

A related notion I kicked around for a while is allowing anyone can wear any armor, but only fighters are unencumbered/move normally (12") in any armor up to plate; clerics are encumbered by armor heavier than chain/mail, thieves are encumbered by armor heavier than leather/padded, and M-Us are encumbered by any armor. There's a neat symmetry to it, but you have to actually do something with move rates for it to be meaningful

[dwayanu]

When you’re trying to escape a troll, you don’t need to outrun everyone — just the slowest. Otherwise, it’s rather to the point of being a mage that you can “reach out and touch someone” with a spell while not needing to move.

[Starbeard]

Feb 16, 2023 15:33:40 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

A related notion I kicked around for a while is allowing anyone can wear any armor, but only fighters are unencumbered/move normally (12") in any armor up to plate; clerics are encumbered by armor heavier than chain/mail, thieves are encumbered by armor heavier than leather/padded, and M-Us are encumbered by any armor. There's a neat symmetry to it, but you have to actually do something with move rates for it to be meaningful

Good idea. Another variant I've pondered is allowing only fighters to wear plate and still carry a backpack. I don't know if it's realistic or not, but I've never seen anyone in plate wearing a pack. Having to choose between AC5 with equipment, and AC3 but carrying only what's in your two hands, seems like an interesting tactical choice.

[ahabicher]

Feb 16, 2023 16:34:32 GMT -6 Starbeard said:

Feb 16, 2023 15:33:40 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

A related notion I kicked around for a while is allowing anyone can wear any armor, but only fighters are unencumbered/move normally (12") in any armor up to plate; clerics are encumbered by armor heavier than chain/mail, thieves are encumbered by armor heavier than leather/padded, and M-Us are encumbered by any armor. There's a neat symmetry to it, but you have to actually do something with move rates for it to be meaningful

Good idea. Another variant I've pondered is allowing only fighters to wear plate and still carry a backpack. I don't know if it's realistic or not, but I've never seen anyone in plate wearing a pack. Having to choose between AC5 with equipment, and AC3 but carrying only what's in your two hands, seems like an interesting tactical choice.

I expect the reason why people in plate don't carry backpacks is that they have serfs to carry their stuff.
(Given that plate mail used to cost quite a bit more than chainmail, so if you can afford that you tend to have land and title)

[Starbeard]

Thinking about it, I imagine pretty much everything that isn't a gambeson or a chain shirt is going to restrict backpackability. I had a boiled leather brig set for SCA fighting, and while I know that regulation SCA armor is a mishmash of different types, it can still help to serve as illustration. Anyway, between the pauldrons, the gorget, and the lack of arm & torso mobility at the extremes (there was plenty mobility, just not the twisting to scratch the center of your back kind), I don't think slinging a pack would have worked at all. Too many things for the straps to catch on and no easy way to offload it without help.

I wouldn't bother over that with fantasy leather armor, which I figure lacks most of the hard joint and neck pieces of 15th/16th-century and modern sport armor anyway. But I might toy around with limited backpacks to chain or less, unless you're a fighter.

[countingwizard]

I thought the reason for no metal armor was:

* Move Silently: Armor makes noise either from worn equipment (like swords, backpack, other carried items) clacking against it, or in the case of fully armored, platemail clanking around

* Hide in Shadows: Metal armor reflects more light and stands out in the dark even if you are beyond the lit area (if I'm not using a thief class, I penalize hiding chances based whether they have blackened their armor with dull paint or mud or not.

[machfront]

Feb 16, 2023 15:33:40 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

A related notion I kicked around for a while is allowing anyone can wear any armor, but only fighters are unencumbered/move normally (12") in any armor up to plate; clerics are encumbered by armor heavier than chain/mail, thieves are encumbered by armor heavier than leather/padded, and M-Us are encumbered by any armor. There's a neat symmetry to it, but you have to actually do something with move rates for it to be meaningful

I’d like to do this, but, as semi-real-old-school as I am….I don’t play D&D as the game it IS. I instead use it simply as an ‘engine’ for fun stuff.
In Tunnels & Trolls, every character type may use any armor, but warriors use it to twice its effectiveness.
Such a thing doesn’t really work in D&D (and if ya forced it, it would go too too far).
Encumbrance being a ‘downside’ in all my games in all my years would be nigh zero….

[dwayanu]

Yeah, D&D (like T&T) is a lot more about what serves the game than about the simulation that C&S, RQ, GURPS, etc., have attempted. A little of the latter got some play in 3E, but it’s basically an awkward fit.

Gygax himself came to regret strength penalties for females in AD&D — ironically advertised in the PHB’s front matter as being absent — because that just didn’t make sense in terms either of game balance or of reflecting the warrior heroines in the source material. One could further jigger with the system to correct the mismatch, but it’s simpler just to drop it.

[dwayanu]

As for encumbrance being a downside, I’ve encountered that a lot. The MU and thief lightly burdened going in can haul out more treasure, reaping more XP without the risks incurred by needing to make another trip. Upon return, the pile of treasure might not even be there any more!

It’s surely no accident that coins in OD&D are so heavy. That one needs thousands to level up that way was perhaps primarily for spectacle like that of Smaug’s hoard, but the need to shift literal tons to reach high level also presents a logistical challenge. It can be worthwhile to pass up a haul of silver in search of gold, or of gold for a shot at more value per pound in gems and jewelry.

[Parzival]

Some problems with that video:
1.) Is that really “armor grade” chain mail, or is it largely meant for looks? Don’t know on either one, but it could make a difference— “real” chain mail might not be as “soft” in its sound as cosplay armor.
2.) What’s the control? The comparison to loud speech and heavy, deliberate exhaling really isn’t relevant, as neither of those does one engage in when sneaking up on someone. The actual comparison should be between sneaking up on someone while NOT wearing the chain mail, and sneaking up on someone while wearing the chain mail.
3.) How does the sound affect things when one is sneaking up on someone who is on their guard/not on their guard? Actively/not actively listening? In a noisy/quiet environment? In a dungeon environment (stone walls, floors, and ceiling), not an office room in a modern house?
4.) What about when carrying full adventuring equipment— waterskin, weapon sheath, backpack, other weapons— things the mail might brush or tap against or vice versa?

A better test would have multiple parts:
1. Sneaking up on a subject who has no idea any such thing might happen.
2. Sneaking up on someone who has been told such a thing might happen.
3. Sneaking up on either of the above while other things are happening to distract their attention.
4. Doing all of the above without armor.
5. Wearing the full adventurer panoply for the above.
6. Doing all of this across a large number of participants so as to allow for a broad range of hearing sensitivity and general alertness in the “targets” of the sneak.

It’s not enough to show that it makes a low noise level— it’s whether it makes a sufficient level to foil stealthy action.