The Charge Maneuver and the Set Spear response— how it works

[Parzival]

On another forum I’ve been debating the nature of the Charge maneuver in Classic D&D, and the Set Spear vs. Charge counter-maneuver. (For the record, the latter is not named this in B/X, but is essentially the same in context.)

We’ll start with B/X.

B (Moldvay) makes no mention of either action. (I think this is relevant, but we’ll move on).

X (Marsh Cook) mentions both maneuvers explicitly in only two places:

X25, under Other Attack Forms: “LANCE COMBAT. The lance is a special long spear that is best used by a fighter mounted on horseback. If the terrain is clear and fairly level, any opponent more than 20 yards away can be charged. If the charging creature hits, damage is doubled. Otherwise the lance is treated as a spear.”

X27: The Monsters chapter explanatory text— “Damage gives the damage caused by a monster's successful attack. …{SNIP}…Special attacks may also be listed under damage, such as poison, petrification (turn to stone), paralysis, energy drain, and so on.) Some notes on special attacks follow:
Charge: When a creature rushes into melee combat this is called a charge. A charge cannot be made after the opponents have closed to melee range, nor can it be made in forest, mountain, jungle, swamp, or broken terrain which prevents running. The charging creature must move at least 20 yds. A successful charge attack by a creature with large horns or tusks does double damage to an opponent. Hits on charging creatures by spears or pole arms braced against the ground will do double damage.”

The Monster entries offer only a few creatures where the charge is mentioned:
Camel— the charge with a lance is prohibited from camelback.
Elephant
Gorgon
Horse— (War horse only, and only a rider with a lance gains the charge attack, not the horse.)
Mastodon
Triceratops

Notably the Centaur is not listed as being able to charge, but is listed as possibly being armed with a lance— for which the charge maneuver is the only point (well, aside from that shiny sharp bit up front ).

And that’s it in B/X. No other text appears.

The RC is far more extensive, referencing the maneuver in multiple places, always restricting the charge to a mounted lance attack, or in the specific case of certain monster entries:

Boar (an addition to its entry compared to Moldvay B)
Centaur (now specifically states these creatures can charge, if armed with lances.)
Elephant & Mastodon (shared entry)
Dinosaur, Land, Herbivore (for a trample, so the “double damage” rule is (probably) ignored.)
Gorgon
Horse (same requirement for a rider with a lance, and “unlike all other horses,” who cannot charge.)
Triceratops

(Also the Creature Catalog details the Lupin as being able to charge with a lance while mounted on a trained dire wolf.)

Notably in the section on Monster special attacks, the text adds “(20 feet indoors)” after the statement about moving 20 yards. Yet in all other entries, the text repeats explicitly that the charge must be “over 20 yards,” and makes no reference to the maneuver being used in indoor combat. (I believe the parenthetical was a drop-in in error.)

With all of the above in place, my contention is that a charge is situationally specific and restricted to certain creatures or similar, and that it does not apply to all monsters, most notably humanoid monsters on foot, as an orc armed with an axe. And my contention is that also means that setting the spear against a charge has no purpose against creatures aside from those listed, or mounted foes armed with a lance.

I’m curious as to where anyone else rules this way, or what your interpretation might be.

[Desparil]

I checked the Rules Cyclopedia and it specifies that the Set Spear vs. Charge bonus applies as long as the enemy has moved 20 yards or more toward you before its attack.

A charge is when a monster charges the character—that is, runs toward him for 20 or more yards before its attack. A character can also set his spear vs. another character's lance attack against him.

As far as I know you're correct about B/X though.

[Parzival]

My issue is why would a monster do that if double damage wouldn’t result, or if you had a spear braced? After all, by rule a combatant cannot run and attack in the same round— the lone exception appearing to be the very specific charge maneuver for the creatures and weapons listed in my OP.

Say a Fighter is 20 yards from an orc. The Fighter braces his spear. The orc runs 18 yards and 1 foot towards the Fighter, stopping within melee range (5’), but not reaching the full 20 yards. Per the rules, the orc thus successfully avoids being damaged at all by the set spear, and the Fighter is committed to bracing the spear, so can’t attack. The orc grins, the Fighter feels silly, nothing happens, and now it’s a new combat round.

And yes, that’s absolutely absurd, but it’s entirely BtB.

So basically there’s a big “oops” in there somewhere.

[Desparil]

I mean, if you're going to allow foot-by-foot bean-counting, then yes it turns out that you technically only get to deal double damage if the enemy is at least 21.67 yards away. Almost every monster moves 30 yards or more per round outdoors, so it's usable in any case. It is still a bit of a niche option in that it's mostly unusable indoors, as very few monsters have indoor movement rates that high, but it's not unusable by any means.

As for a fighter being committed to a braced spear an unable to attack, I would say that falls upon the DM's obligation of fair refereeing to tell the player during action declaration if the monster is too close for his character to use the Set Spear vs. Charge maneuver and allow him to choose some other action instead. Monsters could, of course, slow down and stop short of melee range but within 20 yards if they see PCs setting spears, but then they're giving the PC party an extra round of missile attacks, so there's a tradeoff being made. Or if no one has missile weapons, then it just delays melee by one round with no advantage or disadvantage either way.

[Parzival]

Well it’s not foot-by-foot bean counting. It’s just that the creature decides not to move the maximum, but instead reaches melee range, but not the head of the spear. So any distance of 15 yards to 19 yards and 2’ makes that happen. Which, as I said, seems kinda silly. And thus, I don’t think that’s intended to even be a possibility.

It all comes down to the abstract nature of D&D combat. That’s why I don’t think these rules apply to indoor combat or even outdoor movement by creatures not capable of making the charge “count.” A centaur with a lance, yes. A giant centipede with its pincers, no. Which is why the two rules don’t appear in Moldvay— the circumstances required for the rules to apply can’t happen in a typical indoor dungeon environment against typical dungeon monsters armed with the weapons from the equipment chart (or teeth and claws and stingers, either). Otherwise *all* initial rounds of combat at encounter distances of 20’ would result in double-damage running charges by both sides. Which is tactical nonsense, and the rules explicitly don’t allow— you can’t run and attack in the same round. The two actions are exclusive to each other.

So the Marsh/Cook rule is a significant change, if applied to all indoor encounters, or even all outside encounters at 20 yards (60’). But with it only applying to lance cavalry or very specific creatures with tusks and horns, the charge rule is not a significant change, just a rare added possibility— and so is the exception, not the rule. You don’t (and can’t) set a spear to received the “charge” of a giant centipede, no matter how fast and far it scurries. You don’t get double damage for racing your horse forward while waving a dagger. Neither make sense, and thus, neither were intended.

Of interest also is the distinctive differences between weapons which the game ignores— comparing a 6’ spear to a polearm which, according to Moldvay, could be anywhere from 5’ to 12’ long! (How do you brace a 12’ long pike to receive the running charge of a giant centipede? Or for that matter, a 3’ tall kobold? The geometry doesn’t work.) Again, abstraction at work here, which once again implies that the charge and the brace maneuver aren’t meant to be universal, but to specific situations.

[Desparil]

Neither I nor the Rules Compendium ever said that everyone gets to charge for double damage. What was said is that Set Spear vs. Charge does not depend upon the existence of the Charge or Lance Attack maneuver. In the paragraph that I quoted, "charge" is used lower-case and given a plain English definition. Lance Attack is mentioned in a subordinate clause, but is not part of the primary definition. I'm also unsure where you get the idea that I'm suggesting double damage for a horseback attack with a dagger - the Lance Attack maneuver is very explicit that it only works with a lance. Is it sloppy that certain monsters also have a capital-C Charge special attack which allows them to deal double damage? Absolutely, they probably should have used synonyms like Lunge or Swoop, as appropriate for the particular monster. However, the point remains that Set Spear vs. Charge works against an orc charging at you with a battle axe regardless of the fact that the orc receives no bonus for doing so. And again, the orc is free to slow down as he approaches melee to avoid running afoul of set spears, but the potential trade-off being suffering an extra round of missile attacks.

It's the same story for the "runs toward him" part - that's the plain English word "run," not the game mechanic of choosing to forgo attacking for the round and use Running Speed. These aren't reserved words in a programming language, your expectation that you can interpret them programmatically seems to be the root of your frustration. And yes, indoors when most creatures can only move 20 yards or more by using their Running Speed, these two concepts are closely related, and moving that quickly would prevent them from attacking. Of course, if a group of monsters is running into melee from far down a long corridor - presumably while being shot at by the PCs, as there's no point in playing out the process of closing the distance if no one is making any missile or spell attacks - then it probably does behoove them to slow down and advance more cautiously for the last 20 or 30 feet. The same thing happens outdoors, just at a different threshold - if a group of orcs is 90 yards away and the PCs have spears ready, then they're probably well served to stop short of their full Running Speed and make the final advance on the following round. If they start the round 30 yards away, however, then they have a tactical decision to make about the relative merits of running up against set spears versus an extra round of missiles.

Also, once again, it's a nonsensical interpretation and clearly against the spirit of the rules to suggest that there's any situation where the orc is allowed to attack but the person who Set Spear vs. Charge does not. Like I said, if you want to be pedantic about where melee range starts, then perhaps Set Spear vs. Charge only applies when the combatants begin the round 22 or 25 yards apart. The wording would have been more precise if they stated something like "A charge is when a monster starts the round 20 or more yards away from the character and moves into melee range," but I guess they just weren't anticipating this level of rule-lawyering when the intention of the rule is so crystal clear.

As for giant centipedes, like most enemies they're physically incapable of moving the requisite 20 yards in a single round indoors, and an outdoor encounter with them sounds extremely unusual to me - let alone circumstances where the encounter results in centipedes rushing to attack from 20 yards away - but if such a thing did happen, the DM is free to use common sense and say that you obviously can't take set spears against them. Pikes vs. kobolds is questionable, again DM discretion comes into play, though I find it's quite the corner case since the general lack of .

[Parzival]

My apologies; I was not saying that you asserted any such thing, or even that the RC did. I was dealing with how Moldvay, Marsh, Cook, Mentzer and Allston write the passages and how they can be interpreted. I am trying to examine the rules as a whole to determine what the passages mean. I certainly did not mean any disrespect, and don’t think I included any.

Also, I am not trying to rules lawyer anything. I’m trying to understand what is meant. (I am hardly a rules lawyer— but I am a studier of texts to derive what is most likely meant.)

And now to my reply:

For the record, “charge” is only written with a capital C when it is the header of a section, an item in a chart, or the start of a sentence. Otherwise throughout the text it is lower case— especially in the monster text in the RC where it says “…the X also has the charge ability…” So I don’t think the existence of a capital C has anything to do with what the text means or the rules intend, any more than referring to bracing a spear is different to Setting Spear vs. Charge. (The only other instance where the C in Charge is capitalized outside of a chart)

I will note that in fact, all of the monsters I mentioned have running speeds which meet or exceed 20 yards, as running speed is 3x encounter speed. Since the giant centipede, for example, has an encounter speed of 20’ per round, 3 x that is 60’ or 20 yards per round running speed. So it can easily exceed 20’ indoors and meet the 20 yards requirement outdoors.

And yes, I do think that the word “run” in the context is indeed a reference to running speed, running speed being a constant calculation in the game, whether in a combat encounter or not— it is simply and always 3 x Encounter Speed, or the equivalent of Normal Movement speed accelerated to 10 second intervals rather than 10 minute (effectively, Normal speed x 60, if measured in ten-minute turns). (I think my math is right there— so a Normal Speed of 60’ per turn becomes a Running Speed of 60’ per round, which would be 360’ per minute, or 3,600’ per 10 minutes— that is about 4 mph— not a very fast run by any means. Hard to call that a charge…) When the rules say run, they literally mean what the rules define as a run.

And so I think the intent of the rule is clear— it’s for use against things which can actually charge, not things that move forward at a scurry, and is meant for outdoor combat involving cavalry or the equivalent. To me, that is perfectly clear, in the context of the entire usage of the terms across the text.

For the record, my interpretation thus means there’s never any question about what happens in melee with regard to the spear. It isn’t set against infantry; it’s set against cavalry (or monsters which behave in a similar manner). In indoor combat, you use the spear as a spear, for thrusting and stabbing. In outdoor combat you use it in the same way— BUT if you see a knight or a centaur with a lance, or a boar, elephant, mastodon, Gorgon or triceratops who looks to be running your way (and man, they can RUN— around 36 mph!)— THEN you can set your spear to receive the charge and hopefully do them some damage before they do you a whole lotta damage. (It’s really kind of a feeble defense against some of these beasts…)

Which fits that it doesn’t appear as part of the rules until outdoor combat and charge-capable creatures are introduced.

[Desparil]

A round in Basic or Expert D&D is 10 seconds. You can move your Encounter Speed every combat round, which is equal to 1/3 of your Base Speed. Your Running Speed is equal to your Base Speed, but you get to move that far every 10 seconds. For an unarmored man, that's 720 feet per minute indoors or 720 yards per minute outdoors - that's a 24 mph sprint. Choosing to stick with his Encounter Speed is still 8 mph, which most anyone will agree is running. For the man wearing plate whose Base Speed is only 60, it's true that the 20 yard outdoor Encounter Speed is only about 4 mph, though the added mass of his equipment partially compensates the lower velocity when considering his total momentum. It doesn't quite line up, but I'd say that's more of a flaw in bringing speeds forward from Chainmail - armored infantry moving at half the speed of lightly-equipped men is a reasonable approximation when it comes to the logistics of massed units of soldiers, but reenactors have proven time and time again that an armored knight can maintain a rather high level of mobility and athleticism during a 5 or 10 minute obstacle course of skirmish. A person fully kitted out in plate, weaponry, and accoutrements running at 6 or 7 mph would have about the same momentum as a roadside runner going 8 mph. I'm inclined to just leave the rules as-is and let them work as written even if it is a little bit game-y.

Speaking of Chainmail, that and other wargames are where the common sense comes from that infantry can charge. This follows from historical usage - the famed Pickett's Charge during the Battle of Gettysburg was conducted by nine infantry brigades, and examples going all the way back to the Greek hoplite phalanx can be found describing foot soldiers closing the final distance to melee with a charge. Unless the chargers greatly outnumber the defenders, of course, an infantry charge generally won't result in them running roughshod over their enemies as is common with charges by heavy cavalry. This is reflected in wargame rules by generally offering few benefits to charging infantry other than increased movement speed, and in Basic and Expert D&D by not granting any benefit at all. AD&D has more rigorous rules for charging in general, though I understand that falls outside the scope of this thread; my sole note will be under the AD&D rules, only creatures which are encumbered - meaning their speed has been reduced to 3" by bulky equipment exceeding 105 pounds, for PCs of average strength - are disallowed from charging.

This isn't even getting into the fact that you can move your Encounter Speed and still make an attack, so presumably you're actually covering the distance more like 8 seconds. I would consider an orc covering 30 yards in 8 seconds (7.67 mph) to be running - or indeed, charging at me - and I do think that if he impaled himself on my braced spear it would be more deadly for him than a simple stab. Just some rough estimations* indicate that a good thrust might have double the velocity of such a running speed, but the mass of the charging orc is more than 10 times greater than the mass of a thrusting spear.

* Spear thrust impact velocity estimates from here: discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/1520915/7/Pope_YJASC-S-15-00816%20extracted.pdf

[chicagowiz]

Jan 25, 2023 22:07:31 GMT -6 Desparil said:

AD&D has more rigorous rules for charging in general, though I understand that falls outside the scope of this thread; my sole note will be under the AD&D rules, only creatures which are encumbered - meaning their speed has been reduced to 3" by bulky equipment exceeding 105 pounds, for PCs of average strength - are disallowed from charging.

Wow, TIL! I missed that tiny little bit in my readings. ty!

[Parzival]

Historically, the charge is not intended to increase damage but to break the opposing line, by either literally scaring the enemy into fleeing, or by literally pushing them backwards, or by bowling over or shoving aside the enemy to disrupt his cohesion.

But those are all charges of a large mass of men— literally hundreds of men impacting other hundreds of men. That is not individual combat (Hollywood tropes not withstanding). Sheer mass and momentum of a wall of running men was the thing here— not the individualized singular warrior. But running causes unit cohesion to break— you cannot easily maintain a solid formation when moving at top speed, because all men move at different gaits and speeds. (Hence the military development of the march— everybody steps in time, everybody stays together, everybody reaches the enemy at the same time. Which is why that worked so well, as the Romans proved time and time again. Romans didn’t run. They marched.
That must have been as unnerving as hell for some of their foes— this implacable block of identical shields and men in essentially identical armor, just stepping relentlessly forward, moving closer and closer and closer step by step by step…
The running charge was more a factor of undisciplined tribal warfare of the various Celtic and Germanic foes. They hoped to unnerve their foes by charging forward, yelling, with some of their own troops buck naked and covered in paint… the message being “we’re all crazy and we don’t care if you kill us, because we’re going to kill you first.” Which can be effective, too.

One we get into the black powder era, the purpose of the charge changes. Yes, it’s still to intimidate and break the line, but it’s also to outrun the loading time of the enemy’s guns— to get to the enemy and use the bayonet before he can shoot your forces. (The inaccuracy of muskets aids in this attempt.) But once the weapons became more accurate and didn’t need constant, slow reloading, the open charge becomes a really bad idea. (Not that it was ever a really great idea… as Pickett learned.)

Of course, the idea of bracing a spear (or more likely a pike) to receive a charge is a function of the medieval cavalry era, culminating in the “pike and shot” era. Bracing the pikes against the ground wasn’t for dealing with infantry— it was for dealing with cavalry. Horses won’t run themselves onto a wall of sharp pointy things. They’re not stupid creatures. A wall of pikes is a great idea for keeping cavalry from breaking your line— if your men can maintain courage as that massive wedge of horse thunders towards them…

Of course, as musket balls rendered armor less tenable a protection, the cavalry charge evolved and faded as a tactic, and the need for pikes fell away— bayonets and a square formation firing out a volley rain of musket balls were much better protection than even that wall of sharp, pointy spears.

But again, that’s all mass formation combat, not individual combat.

I submit that anyone moving even at 8 mph can easily dodge or knock aside a braced spear. That’s basically a jog, and a braced spear is effectively a stationary point. It’s got some leeway, but a better approach is the over the shoulder thrust.

[Desparil]

I submit then that this is no longer about the rules of Expert D&D, but about you disagreeing with those rules and substituting a house rule which you find more accurate. Which is fine, you use whatever house rules you like, but it's not what the thread was originally stated to be about.

[Parzival]

?
I’m still working with what the rules actually say. I’m still curious about what others think the rules mean, and how they are supposed to be applied. I don’t mind that the discussion diverted into a consideration of real world combat and military tactics. And I don’t mind if you disagree with my understanding or interpretation of the rules.

I like the back and forth of discussion. I find it enjoyable. I certainly do not mean to be dismissive or least of all disagreeable.

For me, in play back in the day the whole concept of the charge and the setting of spears never came up that I recall. But that was also 1e, and it’s been a loooong time.

It’s only recently, as I studied the text of the RC, B/X and B/E that I noticed the oddity of the rule, probably because none of my players have ever selected to use a spear, or attempted to receive a charge with one, or for that matter even attempted a charge on horseback! Or been charged by centaurs, elephants, mastodons, gorgons, or triceratops, or even a wild boar (given the charge ability in RC).

In fact the whole thing came up for me when I was reviewing the rules to see how back in the day I might have accidentally or intentionally or even subconsciously altered the combat process. That’s when I noticed the set spear rule and began to ponder how it could apply. And what hit me was that:
A.) By rule, you can’t run and attack in the same round.
B.) Spear setting has to be declared before initiative or the charge even happens.
C.) Given A and B, how does this combination occur?

Because, by rule, the only movement which can produce an attack is an encounter speed movement.* Otherwise, you’re closing to allow the other guy to hit you for free. Who would do that? Ironically, this would mean that losing initiative is preferable to winning it, as the winner (being smart) does not close to allow you a free hit. So he does nothing, while you run up into melee range and hope to win initiative in the next round so you can swing first. And that doesn’t make sense, either.

(*and even that’s not clear— there’s a bit of confusion in the rules which restrict a combat round to one action, other than a specific combat maneuver as Fighting Withdrawal or Retreat. But movement at counter speed seems to be an action. So… how do you approach an enemy and attack? Walk up, allow him a free strike, hope you survive and get to hit him first in the next round? Who would be that foolish? Clearly that is not what is meant. So therefore I conclude that encounter speed movement is assumed to be part of an initial attack— step up and strike as one action.)

So, is the “charge” movement actually just an encounter speed move, or a running speed movement? 20 yards in 10 seconds is about 4 mph— a brisk walk. How does such a walk end with the foe impaling himself on an unmoving spear point he can see being leveled? Or for that matter, gaining double damage? It doesn’t make sense. It’s a good closing speed, yes— like a Roman marching forward— but an impact charge? Or an attempt to avoid incoming missiles? Nothing about that felt right to me or made any tactical sense. And, if you think about, if the simple act of moving 20’ in one round is a charge then every combat maneuver by anybody to get into melee range is a charge. Because almost anybody has an encounter speed of 20’ per round or more (1.36 mph, for the record). And that circumstance doesn’t make sense, either— not the least because it never gets mentioned as a tactic in the combat section in Basic (any edition) or anywhere else. Moving a mere 20’ and getting double damage on your attack? Heck, even magic-users would be hoofing it into melee for that advantage! Also, the often-made assertion that what the PCs get to do the monsters get to do goes both ways— if an orc can “charge” for 20 feet, then so can a cleric. “Sauce for the goose, Mister Savik”.

And, so questioning, I went to the weapons rules and discovered something interesting— in the Weapons Mastery system, only one weapon, the lance, has the charge ability— the rules specifically state that no other weapons can be used to make a charge! Further, the rules specifically state that the lance only has the charge ability when used by a wielder mounted on a war horse (and no other weapon does). So if PCs are specifically prohibited from charging without having a lance and being mounted, then shouldn’t that same rule apply to their humanoid foes? Again, “sauce for the goose…”

And that’s what sent me to the other mentions of charging in the RC— the Monster Abilities and Special Attacks section, which defines the charge for monsters as being a detail in the monster listing, and explains what that detail means.

And that gave me the whole picture:

1.) The charge is an exception to the combat restriction on using “running speed” and attacking in the same round. It is a very specific special combat maneuver.
2.) For weapon using creatures, the charge is limited to the lance, and to an attack made from horseback (or a similar mount— as the Lupin on a dire wolf (Creature Catalog). It cannot be otherwise without being unfair to PCs (and illogical).
3.) For other specific creatures, the charge is a special attack listed in their monster description. If it’s not listed, a critter can’t do it.
4.) Therefore, like the charge itself, Setting a Spear vs. Charge is, as is stated, also a unique combat maneuver. It has the unique property of allowing an attack to be made on the charging creature’s combat turn— which otherwise the rules do not permit. It is used only against the charge, which is defined by points 1-3.

And with that plugged in the confusion goes away.

So from this we can see that since a brisk walk (20’ in 10 seconds, or 1.36 mph) is not a charge, the 20’ parenthetical addition is an out and out mistake, probably dropped in by a copy editor who wasn’t paying close attention.
Thus an encounter speed move by a typical foe is not a charge, even if over 20 yards (60’). The movement must be 20 full yards— most likely outdoors (hence the restriction to yards, which are never measured in a dungeon situation). So at a minimum, the foe must have an encounter speed of 60’— 4mph, which is a brisk walk, but definitely not a run, but is also much greater than the unencumbered encounter speed of a PC— which is 40’ per round (2.7 mph— a somewhat leisurely stroll, IRL).

But with a cavalry or cavalry-like charge we are facing foes with potential speeds of 90 yards (18.4 mph) or more! Now, yes, that makes sense— that’s a thundering, terrifying rush which is giving the foe considerable momentum— which means the “double damage” effect is entirely reasonable if not almost expected— and it also means that avoiding a braced spear would not be so easy within that 10 second round of essentially simultaneous action, and would be quite risky to the charger as well— once again, here the “double damage” again makes sense and could also be expected.

And that’s how I arrived at my interpretation.

It’s not a house rule at all— it’s a close reading of the rules as written which produced a logical conclusion based on both the text itself and an understanding of what combat situation the rules are intended to simulate, even if somewhat abstractly.