A non-D&D old-school game (ideas)

[dwayanu]

Different aspects of OD&D especially strike chords with different people. I’m thinking now about how some things might be done differently firstly for the inherent interest of shaking up what’s old hat, and potentially also to emphasize more some dynamics.

The ‘megadungeon’ is broadly something that went into neglect for decades before the OSR. While I want also to treat the city and wilderness games, the underworld is my first focus.

One assumption that might be interesting to change — and I think Into the Odd already changes up — is that of magicians having built in, automatically regenerating and (with experience) improving powers. As with shopping for magic, that draws away a bit from a direct pursuit of power through risky adventure. Doubling down on the latter is something I explored back in my Holmes Basic days.

The balance between magicians and warriors has always been a tricky issue. Removing the dichotomy of those as separate classes might contribute to making game balance easier, and certainly creates a different situation (as players of, e.g., RuneQuest can attest). If all magic is effectively treasure, even when it amounts to gaining an inherent ability, removing the element of distinct classes makes I think all the more sense.

Even with clerical healing, OD&D can give rise to situations in which HP loss makes a figure much less powerful than level alone would indicate. If my memory of Arneson’s The First Fantasy Campaign serves, preparing spells in the early Blackmoor campaign was basically like the later making of potions and scrolls.

With the larger campaign in mind, more frangible power brings interesting choices. A magic with a limited number of uses raises the question of when to use it. If other abilities require restoration through adventure, there are more opportunities for high- and low-level figures to adventure together.

Anyhow, these are just some initial thoughts. I’m curious whether others have ideas of how something might simultaneously jazz on key themes of OD&D and bring a remarkably different flavor.

[derv]

You know, the whole fighter, magic user power curve comparison is a frequent point of discussion. I don't think I've ever heard anyone suggest simply limiting the number of spells a magic user can learn, and thus use, at each level in order to compensate for the perceived problem. Usually the solutions are to somehow beef up the Fighter class.

[dwayanu]

From the Foreword to Eldritch Wizardry:

“But somewhere along the line, D&D lost some of its flavor, and began to become predictable. …The new concept pioneered within these pages should go a long way towards putting back in some of the mystery, uncertainty and danger that make D&D the unparalleled challenge it was meant to be. …No more will some foolhardy adventurer run down into a dungeon, find something and immediately know how it works, or even what it does.”

I presume that the “new concept” refers to the magical artifacts details of which are rolled up on tables.

Again, Paul Montgomery Crabaugh in an early issue of The Dragon remarked on players’ ability to look up details of even obscure monsters. “The answer is to occasionally throw a monster at the party that keeps them on their toes, one that they have never seen before because it is unique.” To that end, he provided a method for randomly generating critters. John Pickens created one more narrowly tailored for demons (a revision of which appeared in the 1E DMG).

The Dungeon Crawl Classics game line rather often presents new monsters, and routinely uses dice tosses and tables to vary the effects of spells. Making the unknown rather the rule than the exception would be a further step.

That calls for procedural generation to ease the burden on the DM’s imagination. Benchmarks for assessing power level are also helpful.

[dwayanu]

I like the approach in Talislanta in which, instead of classes per se, one gets a background type: (place holder examples) Xyzzy Oneiromancer, Frobozzian Beastmaster, etc.. Zenobia does something similar with a much smaller array, but I’m inclined to go the more extensive route.

Warhammer FRP took that a step further with advancement being primarily a series of careers. Barbarians of Lemuria does something analogous, with characters starting with a history of four prior occupations more simply noted as ratings.

I’m thinking of something roughly along these lines, allowing some customization but also making both initial generation and subsequent “level ups” quick and easy. The former might entail a “life path” kind of system, while the latter ought likewise to be shaped by events in play.

This should provide a short-hand description at least as convenient as class and level, but probably richer in evocation of the game world.

At the same time, I’m predisposed to like advancement directly expressed in basic ability scores (a la Tunnels & Trolls and The Fantasy Trip).

[dwayanu]

Regarding XP, dependence on Smaug-like (also McDuck-like) piles of gold has diminishing returns in spectacle, complicates keeping the game economy interesting, and can artificially skew priorities away from more entertaining opportunities.

The broader paradigm of rewarding ‘glory’ presents a challenge in providing benchmarks sufficiently clear to DMs and players alike. I’m contemplating taking up that challenge.

[chicagowiz]

Jan 14, 2023 15:50:06 GMT -6 dwayanu said:

Regarding XP, dependence on Smaug-like (also McDuck-like) piles of gold has diminishing returns in spectacle, complicates keeping the game economy interesting, and can artificially skew priorities away from more entertaining opportunities.

The broader paradigm of rewarding ‘glory’ presents a challenge in providing benchmarks sufficiently clear to DMs and players alike. I’m contemplating taking up that challenge.

Pinging off this, I've taken to using what Jeff Berry/Chrine shared about how Prof Barker awarded experience. It wasn't just all about treasure and killing monsters. Your level was as much a reflection of the influence/reputation you had in your clan/faction/locale as much as experience or wealth. So by doing a mission that benefitted your faction, you would gain a level (get a promotion!) with commensurate increases in spells or other things that came with being a bit further up the ladder.

That makes a lot of sense! So I've taken to doing that. Based on old Chainmail/OD&D, I look at a breakdown kinda like this:

- Level 0/1 - not known by anyone. "Who are you?"
- Level 2/3 - known locally (around town) "Oh yea, heard of you all. You're those crazy dudes delving the Black Maw, right?" Not known regionally (think a group of cities or closely interconnected hexes) or across the map/continent/etc.

- Level 4 (hero) - esteemed/despised locally, known regionally, not known across map/continent
- Level 5/6/7 - reputation/influence grows quite large locally, begins to grown regionally, is known across the map/continent. Those darn bards and their songs...

- Level 8 (superhero) - Fighting persons/wizards are nearly the lords/sorcerors locally, while clerics can build their temples/strongholds, esteemed/despised regionally, known and nearly famous/infamous across the map.

- Level 9+ - Fighters/magic users can build strongholds and become the nobles locally, while participating in the rule of the region, projecting power/influence from their stronghold. esteemed/despised across the map, gaining power and influence as their reach grows.


A new version of the game would reflect that a lot more clearly and encourage that sort of dynamic, but remain open so that DMs could craft experience awards to what works in their campaign.

PS. FWIW, I've used this approach for awhile now in my various games and it works very well, even for AD&D based games.

[dwayanu]

Scope of notoriety would certainly be part of it. If memory serves, Encounter Critical gives achievements as criteria for advancement in each of its classes.

Fairly clear standards are important to a lot of players, who would find Arneson’s original scheme of “leveling up” when he subjectively felt they had earned it too vague. I gather that ‘milestones’ defined by published scenarios have become usual in 5E, because in most of those advancement would be too rapid by the standard XP method; I think “old school” players are more likely to find that too heavy handed.

Without classes, faction alignment could be the (or a) defining factor, which assumes such factions as a major campaign element in the first place. I’ve found them an engaging feature of games from EPT on to RuneQuest, Legend of the Five Rings and various White Wolf games. They strike me as giving more bang for buck than the abstraction of Chaotic Good versus Lawful Evil.

13th Age, I understand, provides a generic array of ‘Icons’, mover and shaker positions that GMs can fill with NPCs appropriate for their own worlds.

More personalized awards might come from something rather like Beliefs in The Burning Wheel. A scheme like that gives the Ref a heads up about what the players want to explore, making it easier to set up dramatic situations that grab their interest.

[chicagowiz]

Jan 16, 2023 20:01:20 GMT -6 dwayanu said:

Fairly clear standards are important to a lot of players, who would find Arneson’s original scheme of “leveling up” when he subjectively felt they had earned it too vague.

Maybe. Then again, that's part of the magic of OD&D that "strikes the chord" with me. The light touch of rules, just enough description to feed the imagination machine that allows the GM to cast/tune the game to their campaign world. If I were going to do it differently, that approach is definitely one I would keep, no matter what else I ended up changing.

[dwayanu]

If the accounting of thousands of points for monsters and loot is a light enough touch to brush off, I presume that something that does not involve such paperwork may seem at least no more burdensome.

[Finarvyn]

Jan 16, 2023 20:01:20 GMT -6 dwayanu said:

13th Age, I understand, provides a generic array of ‘Icons’, mover and shaker positions that GMs can fill with NPCs appropriate for their own worlds.

It's an interesting system, indeed. Their world has, I think, 13 of these Icons and each character has connections to a couple of them. Then, each adventure you roll to see if that connection comes up this time. It gives the GM a sense of an ongoing campaign and the players the sense of being able to connect with the "movers and shakers" of the campaign.

Here is an interesting article about how this can work:
slyflourish.com/icon_rolls.html

[chicagowiz]

Jan 17, 2023 1:05:43 GMT -6 dwayanu said:

If the accounting of thousands of points for monsters and loot is a light enough touch to brush off, I presume that something that does not involve such paperwork may seem at least no more burdensome.

Huh. I'm not exactly sure how to take that, but my spidey-sense says I should just nod and slowly back out of the discussion. A pleasure.

[dwayanu]

Jan 17, 2023 10:50:09 GMT -6 chicagowiz said:

Jan 17, 2023 1:05:43 GMT -6 dwayanu said:

If the accounting of thousands of points for monsters and loot is a light enough touch to brush off, I presume that something that does not involve such paperwork may seem at least no more burdensome.

Huh. I'm not exactly sure how to take that, but my spidey-sense says I should just nod and slowly back out of the discussion. A pleasure.

How to take it is as confidence that you are a masterful referee who could continue to do things as you please even if what you are presently ignoring were replaced with something else — arguably simpler — to be ignored. In both cases, something has been provided as a starting point for less masterful Refs, so they are not required to re-invent the wheel.

I apologize for having apparently ruffled your feathers, and hope you will not on that account go off in a huff.

[dwayanu]

HP inflation, or at least the scale of it over levels, has over the years often come in for criticism. I’m inclined to think it’s probably something I would keep. Having that certain buffer seems to me a key difference between D&D and other systems. Situations that bypass it stand out as especially dangerous.

One interesting variation would be to use HP as ‘currency’ for more than just avoiding serious wounds. The points could for instance be spent to fuel magic.

[dwayanu]

While magic as “heavy weapons section” has become usual in post-D&D heroic fantasy, it’s more in keeping with earlier tradition for magic but rarely to be a direct substitute for martial prowess.

I would like to go back to the older paradigm, in which combat applications tend merely to support the warriors’ arms, and often depend on indirect tactics.

This is another reason not to have a class dichotomy. There certainly will be trade offs between excelling at the pursuits, but PCs with some magic ought to be (like the Grey Mouser or Elric) fairly competent without it. (Elric is relatively a physical weakling without Stormbringer, but parting them is unusual.)

Sorcerers who are hapless when brought to grips can still appear as foes, commonly commanding minions as well as magic.

[dwayanu]

Looking beyond the megadungeon, another aspect that has fallen into neglect is the original connection with a grand tactical and strategic game. A system that makes this easier for people who are not experienced wargamers would be remarkable.

There are rules sets that serve the wargame element itself, but simple and seamless integration with an RPG rules set is another matter. I think it calls for design with that in mind from the start.

[dwayanu]

Jan 17, 2023 5:20:40 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

It’s an interesting system, indeed. Their world has, I think, 13 of these Icons and each character has connections to a couple of them. Then, each adventure you roll to see if that connection comes up this time. It gives the GM a sense of an ongoing campaign and the players the sense of being able to connect with the "movers and shakers" of the campaign.

Here is an interesting article about how this can work:
slyflourish.com/icon_rolls.html

Thank you for that link! I was thinking chiefly of what chicagowiz mentioned, such relationships providing criteria for advancement. Other potential uses, though, are certainly things I’d like to consider.

The article’s introduction reminds me of difficulties that sometimes arise in Hero System games from tosses for Dependent NPCs, Hunters and Watchers.

[rredmond]

Jan 17, 2023 11:07:11 GMT -6 dwayanu said:

... confidence that you are a masterful referee who could continue to do things as you please...

This is truth for Mike, great DM and also the creator of too many D&D tools. I still use (what I think is the chicagowiz ) OSRIC DM's screen! Good stuff throughout that blog too!

Jan 17, 2023 5:20:40 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Here is an interesting article about how this can work:
slyflourish.com/icon_rolls.html

Jakers! So many much things I want to learn about other-than-OD&D/AD&D1e-systems. Any good pointers to get me more info on Icons?