Borrowing from Petal Throne

[tombowings]

In your opinion, which ideas from Empire of the Petal Throne are worth borrow and adapting into an OD&D game?

[Finarvyn]

I think there are a lot of things. I view this through the lens of EPT being an alternate set of D&D rules, influenced somewhat by exposure to Arneson's Blackmoor campaign. As such, there are many things to glean from the thing.

(1) In some ways EPT is "better written" than OD&D, in that it explains some things that OD&D just assumes you know.

(2) While EPT uses a percentile stat system, it adds in verbal descriptors. Strength (for example) isn't just a number but is given language of Weak, Average, Strong, Powerful, Superb. One can match up those words with a 3d6 system to make OD&D characters more vibrant. If I recall correctly, EPT says to roll dice for each stat and the phrase "in order" doesn't exist so that particular question of interpretation isn't addressed.

(3) EPT has a skill system which is kind of cool. You get a background, and with that some life skills that you would have learned. They are divided up into plebeian, skilled, and noble. Not nearly as complex as a lot of later skill systems.

(4) EPT explains the concept of "hit dice" better than OD&D, also the notion that each level you re-roll them entirely. (My house rule would be that the number can't go down. I can't recall if that is stated in EPT or not.) I think the EPT system was all d6's and similar to the Men & Magic HD progression for classes.

(5) EPT has a "damage dice" system similar to stuff I've seen for Fighting Capability from OD&D. Rather than get multiple attacks, I think EPT has higher level characters do more damage to low level monsters.

I will have to track down my copy and look for more. Great thread, by the way. I was just starting to go through old source material of the old days (Judges Guild, Runequest, EPT, etc) with the thought of putting together a house rules doc for my next campaign. This fits with that concept very well!

[retrorob]

For me EPT is just the first clone of OD&D. Bear in mind that there are 2 slightly different versions of first EPT - the one with the green cover comes first. If I remember correctly, even this first manuscript was influenced by the people from TSR, so perhaps Gygax took the oportunity to straighten things out. A lot of ideas, but mostly related to Barker's world. The Damage Dice table is particularly memorable - I've used it a lot in my OD&D games (and posted on this board about it). Re-rolling HD/HP is also superb and highly recommended, as OD&D doesn't clarify it enough. I remember using evasion table, saving throws, and some magic items (The Amulet of Power Over the Undead).

[ravenheart87]

I love EPT's skill system. I used it in my Swords & Wizardy Wilderlands campaign and would gladly do so in a heartbeat again.

[waysoftheearth]

Some neat ideas in there for sure. 

Chance of ability scores improving with each level up.

XP earning slows down as you get higher.

Double damage on a natural 20 is a commonly adopted one. Also insta-kills on a natural 20 followed by a 19+.

Chance of spell failure... steel plate+shield is AC 1 (non-metal plate+shield is the regular AC 2)...

I wrote a list of EPT's differences to regular OD&D a while back here.

[waysoftheearth]

Jan 5, 2023 12:15:28 GMT -6 retrorob said:

Bear in mind that there are 2 slightly different versions of first EPT - the one with the green cover comes first.

If I vaguely recall from a decades old topic on these boards, there was some contention about whether the green covered EPT was actually real? Maybe i misremember... let me see if I can find that old topic...

[retrorob]

www.drivethrurpg.com/product/99646/Empire-of-the-Petal-Throne-Original-Manuscript?src=hottest_filtered

This is the original manuscript for Empire of the Petal Throne, produced in the Spring of 1974 in a limited and confidential run of fifty copies for the World of Tékumel, the creation of Professor M.A.R. Barker. This is the first time this original manuscript has been published or made available to the general public. The rules contained herein are a precursor to the game published shortly later by TSR, Inc. and have a number of significant differences from that later version. However, this version in many ways is substantively similar to the later TSR version, and is being presented more as a historical document than as a different product.

[chicagowiz]

I took away the concept of awarding levels based on their fulfillment of faction (cult, clan) missions and objectives. I don't recall if this was codified directly, but I definitely learned it from folks who played in MARB's game and experienced him doing exactly that.

I've also just taken away the concept of really wrapping the rules around the setting, and not vice versa.

No specific mechanics, as OD&D has given me pretty much everything I need so far. EPT is more of a touchstone and inspiration to me.

[SebastianDM]

Since in EPT the procedures are actually explained, I understood a lot more about how to run combat more abstractly at the table. Coming from newer editions I had a lot of difficulties trying to grasp combat without a grid/battlemap.

There are especially two things I have taken to heart and have used at my OD&D table ever since:

First, In section 730 Damage Dice it is indicated that hits are subtracted from the monsters as a collective starting with the weakest monsters and letting damage spill over to the stronger monsters. I have begun doing this for all combat and have enjoyed that I can stop tracking what HP roll each specific monster have and still give the players the benefit of always hitting the most optimal target. (It always irked me to either have to tell the players specific numbers of HP for each monster or always being asked "which one of them looks weakest/most hurt")

Second, It is described that the roll to hit is done before selecting a specific target. This speeds up combat tremendously and I now roll a whole handful of d20 at the same time instead of doing them individually.

There is one thing I never understood, though. From the rules as given, it should not be possible to roll hits before choosing a target since each player/monster can have a different AC. The rules seem pretty clear about the procedure though. here are the relevant sections:

The referee will then give a number to each figure or piece, and when a hit upon the party is indicated, the person or persons hit can be determined by a throw of the dice. (Battle Order and Fighting Space, EPT 1975 p. 30)

and

Rolling a 20-sided die for possible hits, and when two hits are indicated by the four creatures inside the room, he rolls again to determine randomly to see who has been hit, consulting the players' battle order. (Example of combat, EPT 1975 p. 103)

I have changed the to-hit roll in my own game to make it possible to roll all at once, but I have wondered for a long time how it was supposed to be done using the rules as given.

[geoffrey]

Dec 26, 2022 7:23:36 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

EPT explains the concept of "hit dice" better than OD&D, also the notion that each level you re-roll them entirely. (My house rule would be that the number can't go down. I can't recall if that is stated in EPT or not.) I think the EPT system was all d6's and similar to the Men & Magic HD progression for classes.

EPT explicitly says that a character can't lose hit points as a result of gaining a level. Of course, you might not gain any hit points...

I've long adopted EPT's method of rolling characters' HD. Here are my particulars:

Each 1st-level PC starts with maximum hp, and with each new HD gained he entirely re-rolls his hp, Empire of the Petal Throne style. For example, here's a character for whom I have rolled hp:

A 1st-level ranger with a 14 constitution starts with 16 hp.
At 2nd level he rolls 3d8, totaling 12. Too bad! No hp gained this level, so he stays with 16 hp.
At 3rd level he rolls 4d8, totaling 22. Now he has 22 hp.
At 4th level he rolls 5d8, totaling 26. Now he has 26 hp.
At 5th level he rolls 6d8, totaling 24. Too bad! No hp gained this level, so he stays with 26 hp.
At 6th level he rolls 7d8, totaling 27. Now he has 27 hp.
At 7th level he rolls 8d8, totaling 28. Now he has 28 hp.
At 8th level he rolls 9d8, totaling 40. Now he has 40 hp.
At 9th level he rolls 10d8, totaling 55. Now he has 55 hp.
At 10th level he rolls 11d8, totaling 51. Too bad! No hp gained this level, so he stays with 55 hp.
At 11th and higher levels he no long re-rolls hp because he no longer gains HD. Therefore:
At 11th level he has 57 hp.
At 12th level he has 59 hp.
Etc.

The above method accomplishes two things that I like:

1. It makes 1st-level PCs hardier.

2. It makes 2nd+ level PCs have hp totals that are more likely to be average than ridiculously low or ridiculously high.

[greentongue]

What I took from EPT was that someone mashed all my likes for a game setting together and made it a cohesive whole.
If they could make it work. so could I. (Well, I thought so anyway.)