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Post by Red Baron on Dec 10, 2022 10:01:34 GMT -6
How do you handle characters killed by ghouls, wights, wraiths, spectres, and vampires becoming new undead themselves?
Is the process instantaneous? Does it kick in after x many rounds/turns/hours/days? Does it vary by undead type? If a party defeats the original undead or escapes with the body of slain characters, can anything be done to prevent the dead character from becoming undead?
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flightcommander
Level 6 Magician
"I become drunk as circumstances dictate."
Posts: 370
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Post by flightcommander on Dec 10, 2022 20:14:36 GMT -6
Hmm, great question! I've only played in games (ie not refereed) where characters were slain by undead, and probably for the sake of expediency were judged immediately undead, with dramatic results.
Here's a different take which might seem counterintuitive (or stupid, if you're not feeling charitable): it might be interesting to rule that the lower the HD of the undead foe, the faster the transformation happens.
A character slain by a ghoul becomes a ghoul in the next round; one slain by a wight becomes a wight in the next turn; wraith, next 12 hours; spectre, next 24 hours; vampire, the next new moon (scary! — might be tonight, might be a few weeks).
I'd reason here that the loss of a first-level character to a ghoul is not a huge deal, but in the meantime it adds a lot of fun drama to the game. Likewise, should say a seventh-level character be slain by a vampire, there's a downside to just ruling them "gone" but a lot of potential in the possibility of saving that character before they irrevocably become a vampire themselves.
As for defeating the "original undead", I personally wouldn't bring the character back among the living, regardless of the nature of the undead foe.
As for carting off a slain-by-undead character, perhaps a Remove Curse or something more robust would work, but make it quick!
I purposely did not review my copy of OD&D to concoct an answer to this because I think it's an interesting and open-ended question on purpose — the undead (also lycanthropes) seem to make an appearance in many different cultural mythologies, and DMs should have leeway to tailor the details to their taste.
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Post by hamurai on Dec 11, 2022 0:31:00 GMT -6
When I was DM, I never had a character die from any of the lower undead, only a vampire, and I ruled that the transformation takes a while. Apart from being influenced by Vampire the Masquerade, common belief and stories I had heard told about people being buried and then rise as vampires, so I ruled that transformation takes place upon next new moon (also to contrast it to lycanthropy). My players then had d30 days to get their friend to a place where they can at least prevent undeath from happening, or maybe even resurrect him.
When I was player, another PC got killed by a Shadow and they immediately rose as a Shadow.
In general, when thinking about it, I'd say corporeal undead take some time to transform, but a transformed soul (like a shadow, a wraith...) can be transformed on the spot by the traumatic experience.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Dec 11, 2022 0:42:02 GMT -6
I tend to make it an overnight thing for corporeal undead, a bit like Dawn Of The Dead.
Vampires need to be buried first so they can get their bit of burial earth for future use.
Incorporeal types just rise out of the body immediately upon death,but they're too confused to do anything in that combat and will probably hang there screaming or just drift off.
Not much you can do to stop incorporeal undead rising unless you have some clerical intervention, because you can't contain them easily and there's no time.
Corporeal undead can always be burned or dissolved in acid before they turn, of course. Or buried in blessed ground but you know someone's going to dig them up, right?
If you were archivist type of ghoul you could entomb your offspring in something inescapable so you could still talk to them. You could search out writers, poets, philosophers, and have your own (un)living library. Just bear in mind what a hundred years of scratching from the inside might do to a container, though, so no flimsy coffins or sandstone sarcophagi.
Okay, that ghoul is definitely going in the Blueholme Brochure.
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Post by doublejig2 on Dec 11, 2022 1:51:39 GMT -6
If you were archivist type of ghoul you could entomb your offspring in something inescapable so you could still talk to them. You could search out writers, poets, philosophers, and have your own (un)living library. Just bear in mind what a hundred years of scratching from the inside might do to a container, though, so no flimsy coffins or sandstone sarcophagi. Okay, that ghoul is definitely going in the Blueholme Brochure. And then there is Lovecraft's Richard Pickman, e.g. |
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Post by Vile Traveller on Dec 11, 2022 2:07:05 GMT -6
And then there is Lovecraft's Richard Pickman, e.g. Yes! That's who I was trying to remember! "I may have acquired a taste for gamey forebears, but there is still nothing I love more than a good book." |
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Post by geoffrey on Dec 11, 2022 20:55:15 GMT -6
How do you handle characters killed by ghouls, wights, wraiths, spectres, and vampires becoming new undead themselves? I do not use wights, wraiths, spectres, or vampires in my games.  As for ghouls, I use the rules from Castles & Crusades for ghasts: "If a creature dies from wounds sustained by a ghast's [ghoul's] claw and bite damage, and is not eaten by the foul creature, it will rise again as a ghoul or ghast in 2d4-1 days unless the corpse is blessed before interment." |
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Post by jamesmishler on Dec 11, 2022 23:51:17 GMT -6
Here's a novel idea...
When a character is slain by an undead creature... Any undead creature, from skeleton to lich, by whatever means/attack used by the undead creature, they might rise again as an undead creature.
If the corpse is blessed, burnt, or otherwise destroyed, they will not rise again.
Otherwise, at nightfall 1d6 days later, the corpse must make a saving throw versus spells. If Lawful, the save is at +4; if Chaotic, the save is at -4.
If the save fails, they rise as an undead.
If their slayer has remained with them throughout and is there when they rise, they rise as the same undead type as their slayer, under their control.
If their slayer has been destroyed or otherwise abandoned them, they rise as the kind of undead with hit dice equal to their level.
0th Skeleton (flesh moulders off)
1st Zombie
2nd Ghoul
3rd Wight
4th Wraith
5th Mummy (or "revenant" if not embalmed)
6th Spectre
7th to 9th Vampire
10th+ 9 HD Vampire unless magic-user
10th+ and magic-user Lich with appropriate hit dice.
This might also occur spontaneously is slain in other ways and left without proper rites in a dungeon with sufficient necromantic or other magic present...
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Post by Vile Traveller on Dec 12, 2022 5:08:52 GMT -6
Take it one step further! Anyone who dies comes back as undead - that's the whole point of funerary rites. The cleric in the party suddenly has another responsiblity.
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Post by geoffrey on Dec 12, 2022 10:43:03 GMT -6
James and Michael, quit being so awesome.  Seriously, anyone who dies without clerical rites comes back as something on James's table of undead? Nasty. |
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Post by Vile Traveller on Dec 12, 2022 12:11:55 GMT -6
By extension I would only have humans rise again as undead, as funerary rites wouldn't be applicable to other types. (I sort of think that's implied in the rules, anyway.)
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Post by horridgoose on Dec 20, 2022 21:51:46 GMT -6
By extension I would only have humans rise again as undead, as funerary rites wouldn't be applicable to other types. (I sort of think that's implied in the rules, anyway.) There's an interesting thought! Some real theological ramifications there. Better halflings not have souls than face a wight with deadly accuracy with missile weapons and a significantly decreased chance to hit |
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Post by Vile Traveller on Dec 21, 2022 3:28:42 GMT -6
Undead as seen in the game are all former humans as far as I can tell, and IIRC AD&D later clarifies that only humans have souls and an afterlife, while everything else has spirits that get recycled into new bodies. I may be wrong, it's about 30 years since I read the DMG. Anyway, that's what got me thinking on these lines.
I also like the idea of making mowing down skeletons and zombies less morally unambiguous by the animation magic actually recalling their souls and trapping them in their own decaying corpses. When they're not directly following orders they might be acting out fragments of memory, like sharpening a blade or whittling wooden toys.
Hello there, Bub!
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