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Post by cometaryorbit on Nov 24, 2022 14:15:26 GMT -6
Wights: "Wights cannot be affected by normal missile fire, but silver-tipped arrows will score normal damage, and magic arrows will score double hits upon them. Magical weapons will score full hits upon them, and those with a special bonus add the amount of the bonus in hit points to the hits scored"
but no clarification of what normal melee weapons do... half damage? normal damage? none, but silver full damage?
Wraiths: "Hits by silver-tipped arrows will score only 1/2 die of damage, and magic arrows only score 1 die of damage when they hit." They "are simply high-class Wights" so I guess otherwise work like Wights.
Spectres: "These monsters have no corporeal body which makes them totally impervious to all normal weaponry (but can be struck by all magical weapons), including silver-tipped arrows"
The fact that it's specifically called out that normal weapons don't work for Spectres (and Mummies) makes me think that they probably do work for Wights (and thus maybe Wraiths) - but then why is 'magical weapons full damage' specified for Wights?
Maybe Wights and Wraiths should be silver or magic like Lycanthropes?
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Post by waysoftheearth on Nov 24, 2022 16:40:41 GMT -6
The AD&D Monster Manual is sometimes regarded as the final OD&D clarification.
FWIW, it has
For wraiths: <<the wraith can be struck only with silver weapons (which cause only one-half damage) or weapons which are magically enchanted (which score full damage)>> MM p102.
For wights: <<they are affected only by silver or magical weapons>> MM p100.
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Post by Mordorandor on Nov 24, 2022 18:31:21 GMT -6
Chainmail governs if OD&D does not contradict or revise. Wights are unaffected by normal melee weapons. They are fantastic creatures normals cannot affect.
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Post by talysman on Nov 24, 2022 20:10:35 GMT -6
Back when I was working on converting undead into five classes, each with ranks from 1 HD to 13+ HD, I tried to make sense of wight and wraith abilities within the context of the rotting and spectral classes of undead. That is, I felt wraiths should have stronger immunities earlier than wights, but by 7th level, rotting undead (vampires, in this case,) should be completely immune. So, I went with the rotting undead taking full damage from mundane melee weapons at 3rd level (wight) but becoming fully immune at 5th level. Spectral undead are the same, except they have improved immunity to missiles. Both rotting and spectral undead take slightly longer to become immune to silver-tipped or -edged weapons, and magic weapons generally don't lose their effectiveness. But I think that when I rework my old notes, I'll change it to this: | Undead Class | Rotting | Spectral | | mundane weapon vs. 1 HD variety | full damage | half damage, no missile | | silver tip/edge | full damage | half damage | | magic weapon | full damage | full damage | | mundane weapon vs. 3 HD variety | half damage | no damage | | silver tip/edge | full damage | half damage | | magic weapon | full damage | full damage | | mundane weapon vs. 5 HD variety | no damage | no damage | | silver tip/edge | half damage | no damage | | magic weapon | full damage | full damage | | mundane weapon vs. 7 HD variety | no damage | no damage | | silver tip/edge | no damage | no damage | | magic weapon | full damage | full damage |
It's just my way of making sense of the progression, which is not expressed the best way in the books. |
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Post by Desparil on Nov 25, 2022 8:07:51 GMT -6
Back when I was working on converting undead into five classes, each with ranks from 1 HD to 13+ HD, I tried to make sense of wight and wraith abilities within the context of the rotting and spectral classes of undead. That is, I felt wraiths should have stronger immunities earlier than wights, but by 7th level, rotting undead (vampires, in this case,) should be completely immune. So, I went with the rotting undead taking full damage from mundane melee weapons at 3rd level (wight) but becoming fully immune at 5th level. Spectral undead are the same, except they have improved immunity to missiles. Both rotting and spectral undead take slightly longer to become immune to silver-tipped or -edged weapons, and magic weapons generally don't lose their effectiveness. But I think that when I rework my old notes, I'll change it to this: | Undead Class | Rotting | Spectral | | mundane weapon vs. 1 HD variety | full damage | half damage, no missile | | silver tip/edge | full damage | half damage | | magic weapon | full damage | full damage | | mundane weapon vs. 3 HD variety | half damage | no damage | | silver tip/edge | full damage | half damage | | magic weapon | full damage | full damage | | mundane weapon vs. 5 HD variety | no damage | no damage | | silver tip/edge | half damage | no damage | | magic weapon | full damage | full damage | | mundane weapon vs. 7 HD variety | no damage | no damage | | silver tip/edge | no damage | no damage | | magic weapon | full damage | full damage |
It's just my way of making sense of the progression, which is not expressed the best way in the books. Considering wights as "rotting undead" is a back-port from AD&D, isn't it? In OD&D it's kind of implied that they're spectral, as wraiths are described as "simply high-class wights with more mobility, hit dice, and treasure" - taking the converse of that statement, a wight must simply be a less powerful wraith. Also the fact that Tolkien's barrow-wights were most definitely spectral entities. |
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Post by talysman on Nov 25, 2022 12:17:22 GMT -6
Considering wights as "rotting undead" is a back-port from AD&D, isn't it? In OD&D it's kind of implied that they're spectral, as wraiths are described as "simply high-class wights with more mobility, hit dice, and treasure" - taking the converse of that statement, a wight must simply be a less powerful wraith. Also the fact that Tolkien's barrow-wights were most definitely spectral entities. I dunno if Tolkien's barrow-wights were spectral ... they didn't give me that vibe. But Tolkien would have known that "wight" is Old English for "living being" or "man", which means "barrow-wight" just means "grave-man". I was maybe 25% influenced by AD&D's interpretation, 50% influenced by Old English, and 25% just plain had more potential spectral undead names than rotting dead names, so my wights got to be corporeal rather than incorporeal. |
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Post by Desparil on Nov 25, 2022 15:21:23 GMT -6
Considering wights as "rotting undead" is a back-port from AD&D, isn't it? In OD&D it's kind of implied that they're spectral, as wraiths are described as "simply high-class wights with more mobility, hit dice, and treasure" - taking the converse of that statement, a wight must simply be a less powerful wraith. Also the fact that Tolkien's barrow-wights were most definitely spectral entities. I dunno if Tolkien's barrow-wights were spectral ... they didn't give me that vibe. But Tolkien would have known that "wight" is Old English for "living being" or "man", which means "barrow-wight" just means "grave-man". I was maybe 25% influenced by AD&D's interpretation, 50% influenced by Old English, and 25% just plain had more potential spectral undead names than rotting dead names, so my wights got to be corporeal rather than incorporeal. Maybe not spectral, but clearly more than just intelligent zombies... they're described as "like a shadow against the stars" and Tom Bombadil's song commands them to "vanish in the sunlight." On the other hand, Frodo does strike off the hand of a barrow-wight, indicating some physicality, though doing so shatters the sword that he uses to strike the blow. Though to be fair, the ringwraiths are similarly ambiguous... the Witch-King of Angmar is first injured by Merry's enchanted barrow-blade, but is then slain by Éowyn with an ordinary sword (and once again, striking such a blow causes the blade to shatter). |
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Post by cometaryorbit on Nov 25, 2022 17:37:24 GMT -6
Back when I was working on converting undead into five classes, each with ranks from 1 HD to 13+ HD, I tried to make sense of wight and wraith abilities within the context of the rotting and spectral classes of undead. That is, I felt wraiths should have stronger immunities earlier than wights, but by 7th level, rotting undead (vampires, in this case,) should be completely immune. So, I went with the rotting undead taking full damage from mundane melee weapons at 3rd level (wight) but becoming fully immune at 5th level. Spectral undead are the same, except they have improved immunity to missiles. Both rotting and spectral undead take slightly longer to become immune to silver-tipped or -edged weapons, and magic weapons generally don't lose their effectiveness. But I think that when I rework my old notes, I'll change it to this: | Undead Class | Rotting | Spectral | | mundane weapon vs. 1 HD variety | full damage | half damage, no missile | | silver tip/edge | full damage | half damage | | magic weapon | full damage | full damage | | mundane weapon vs. 3 HD variety | half damage | no damage | | silver tip/edge | full damage | half damage | | magic weapon | full damage | full damage | | mundane weapon vs. 5 HD variety | no damage | no damage | | silver tip/edge | half damage | no damage | | magic weapon | full damage | full damage | | mundane weapon vs. 7 HD variety | no damage | no damage | | silver tip/edge | no damage | no damage | | magic weapon | full damage | full damage |
It's just my way of making sense of the progression, which is not expressed the best way in the books. Considering wights as "rotting undead" is a back-port from AD&D, isn't it? In OD&D it's kind of implied that they're spectral, as wraiths are described as "simply high-class wights with more mobility, hit dice, and treasure" - taking the converse of that statement, a wight must simply be a less powerful wraith. Also the fact that Tolkien's barrow-wights were most definitely spectral entities. I'm actually not sure OD&D wraiths are fully incorporeal. It's noted that Spectres "have no corporeal body which makes them totally impervious to all normal weaponry (but can be struck by all magical weapons), including silver-tipped arrows"... which could suggest that Wraiths, which can be harmed by silver, do have a 'corporeal body'.
Perhaps Spectres are fully ghost-like, harming mortals by a 'spectral touch' that strikes the life-force/spirit rather than physical harm to the body, whereas Wraiths are like LOTR Ringwraiths who are 'faded' but can still wield physical weapons, wear physical robes, and ride living (though specially trained) horses.
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Post by cometaryorbit on Nov 25, 2022 17:38:47 GMT -6
The AD&D Monster Manual is sometimes regarded as the final OD&D clarification. FWIW, it has For wraiths: <<the wraith can be struck only with silver weapons (which cause only one-half damage) or weapons which are magically enchanted (which score full damage)>> MM p102. For wights: <<they are affected only by silver or magical weapons>> MM p100. That would make sense. I was hesitating between half damage normal / full damage silver and no damage normal / full damage silver for wights. |
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Post by talysman on Nov 25, 2022 19:55:37 GMT -6
I dunno if Tolkien's barrow-wights were spectral ... they didn't give me that vibe. But Tolkien would have known that "wight" is Old English for "living being" or "man", which means "barrow-wight" just means "grave-man". I was maybe 25% influenced by AD&D's interpretation, 50% influenced by Old English, and 25% just plain had more potential spectral undead names than rotting dead names, so my wights got to be corporeal rather than incorporeal. Maybe not spectral, but clearly more than just intelligent zombies... they're described as "like a shadow against the stars" and Tom Bombadil's song commands them to "vanish in the sunlight." On the other hand, Frodo does strike off the hand of a barrow-wight, indicating some physicality, though doing so shatters the sword that he uses to strike the blow. Though to be fair, the ringwraiths are similarly ambiguous... the Witch-King of Angmar is first injured by Merry's enchanted barrow-blade, but is then slain by Éowyn with an ordinary sword (and once again, striking such a blow causes the blade to shatter). Well, the way I was developing them for this (indefinitely postponed) project was that rotting undead begin as intelligent zombies, but since their flesh is rotting away, they transform into skeletal undead unless they make a pact with Darkness to maintain their form, eventually evolving into vampires. The life drain power comes from that pact. They could, of course, rot away faster and transform into spectral undead. I'm actually not sure OD&D wraiths are fully incorporeal. It's noted that Spectres "have no corporeal body which makes them totally impervious to all normal weaponry (but can be struck by all magical weapons), including silver-tipped arrows"... which could suggest that Wraiths, which can be harmed by silver, do have a 'corporeal body'. Perhaps Spectres are fully ghost-like, harming mortals by a 'spectral touch' that strikes the life-force/spirit rather than physical harm to the body, whereas Wraiths are like LOTR Ringwraiths who are 'faded' but can still wield physical weapons, wear physical robes, and ride living (though specially trained) horses.
My headcanon for this was that spectral undead are basically the animated dust left over after the corporeal form has rotted almost completely away. So, they could pass through very small cracks, but weren't fully incorporeal. My first draft of this project had them become more insubstantial as they grew in power, eventually becoming ghosts that can become ethereal and thus fully incorporeal. Later on, I separated ghostly undead into their own type, but made it so that spectrals can transform into ghostly if they lose full cohesion. Edit to Add: I guess another option to solve the problem is assume that there's more than one kind of wight. A corpse wight is completely corporeal. A spectral wight is semi-corporeal or incorporeal, whichever concept you prefer. |
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