What is Old School?

[tdenmark]

Oct 30, 2022 13:26:48 GMT -6 oldskolgmr said:

Hmm...I chose something else because the phrase, "What is [an] Old School [game]?" is a subjective question to me.
I enjoyed reading peoples responses, though.

Me too, which is the reason I posted this. Not that there is any real answer to the question.

To Matt Finch it is a spirit of play.
To some it is a specific era.
To others it is specific published products.

There is probably a better term than "old school" because by its nature that will change with time, but I don't know what that term could be. I kind of like Grognardia's definition of Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age... with 1D&D are we entering the Dung Age? Maybe we were already in it with 4th edition, and a brief Renaissance Age with 5th edition, before going back to the Dung Age.

[dicebro]

For some people D&D became old school about the time of its first publication in 74.

[talysman]

I have to say, the idea that what the term "old school" covers changes over time just doesn't fly with me. It's not like the term "oldies" as used by radio stations to refer to music that's no longer popular. The "school" in "old school" refers to schools of thought, in the same way that we talk about "art schools" or "schools of philosophy". And when something is called "old school", it refers to a way of thinking about or doing something that has changed significantly at some point. It may be hard to pin down when they changed, since things change over time and which changes are considered important is subjective, but the fact that things change is not subjective at all. It's just the boundaries are a little fuzzy.

Back in some other debate about "old school", I looked up the phrase's use outside of gaming in Google Books. The earliest discussion I could find was from more than a hundred years ago, about the old school vs. new school Anglican Church. I'm not an expert on religious history, but from what I can gather, there was a change in the way religious rites were performed (I think to make them less like Catholic rites, but this is complicated by the terms "High Church vs. Low Church", which the source text said weren't the same as "old school vs. new school", but I digress...) There were probably some significant church actions that could pinpoint some of the changes, but deciding which ecclesiastical decree was the dividing line between old and new school would have some disagreement. But there was still an objective change.

The old school/new school D&D debate is the same thing. There's two major changes that people frequently point to:

1. DM or Module Narratives, as in "Here's a story that you are trying to tell, and how to keep the players on track so that the story isn't sidetracked." This is usually blamed on the Dragonlance modules, although if we did research, we could probably find some pre-Dragonlance experiments with pre-defined story arcs.
2. The Shift Away from Class-and-Level towards Skill-and-Talent, with the publication of 3e being a hard boundary (adding point buy for abilities, skills, and feats,) but there were earlier points that could be argued as the actual transition point or at the very least an early experimental change: adding weapon proficiencies (1e), non-weapon proficiencies (Oriental Adventures+Survival Guides,) and kits (2e).

I think most of the options in the poll can be traced back to #2 and how people feel about those boundaries. People who think even having weapon proficiencies is too much change think only 0e is old school and 1e+ are new school. People who are OK with some proficiencies but draw the line at extra abilities or feats include 1e as old school but exclude 3e and possibly 2e. People who think adding point-buy, feats, and skills doesn't change the game away from class-and-level at all think "old school" is either meaningless or just another way of saying "old", so it's very subjective to them.

And then, as I suggested before, there's the matter of "feel" vs. mechanics. I won't list all the different non-mechanical elements I've seen cited as part of the "old school feel", but I will say that it's important, for the same reason some mechanics changes are important: compatibility. People -- well, most people -- aren't just thrown around terms like "old school" because they like the sound of the phrase or the way it looks on a screen. They're trying to find other like-minded people they can play with, or products they can use with little or no modification.

I think the two non-mechanical factors that truly define what "old school" means are:

1. Fiction First vs. System First. Which matters more: the characters and the imaginary situation they find themselves in, or the mechanical definitions of everything involved in the current scenario?
2. The related factor of Player Mastery. Can players play the game without ever learning the system?

[Deleted]

Oct 30, 2022 20:28:17 GMT -6 Desparil said:

Oct 30, 2022 15:17:45 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

I had no idea there were even different editions or versions of the game until an embarrassingly late age. I always just assumed the game I played in the early nineties* was the way it always was, and still was. I didn't find out until years later how intricate and convoluted the evolution of D&D has been. (*That set was technically of the Mentzer lineage too, by the way, but it was one of those revision deals in a black box. That one doesn't get talked about as much as it's not as iconic or long-lived as the red box, but it's essentially the same game.)

Interesting how you started with Basic and it was not at all clear to you that there were different editions. I also started in the '90s, but I was playing AD&D, and the fact that there were editions was really front and center. The first Player's Handbook that I ever bought had "Foreword to the 2nd Edition" on the very first page, and immediately after that on the second page was an additional foreword specifically for the black cover printings assuring the reader in large print that "This is not AD&D 3rd Edition!" followed by a more detailed explanation that the rules were the same other than fixing typos and other errata, and that only the only major changes were the layout and artwork.

To my recollection I never read anything about AD&D vs D&D back then. There was probably something near the back about conversions or some such but it didn't click for some reason. To be honest for the first half dozen games or so I was a player and didn't even look through the text in any detail. I had a character sheet but I'm pretty sure it was all on regular notebook paper. When my brother and I got into DMing we were way more focused on the setting and the adventures we were coming up with so we missed out on minutia squirreled away in odd corners of the books. I was the world's worst about just skimming through and running the game based on a rough approximation of what I thought it all meant, since I was only around 10 at the time. We did everything we set out to do when we found out about D&D, anyway. We had a great time playing make believe with friends. The thing I really liked about OD&D when I actually did deeper reading about the game later is that its loose and rather hectic nature reminds me of the way I always ran the game anyway. I figured "Well, I guess I was already using this without knowing it, so I'll just make it official." 

[Mordorandor]

Oct 31, 2022 16:53:54 GMT -6 talysman said:

I have to say, the idea that what the term "old school" covers changes over time just doesn't fly with me.

I tend to agree with that view.

If OD&D can be called the first RPG, it seems obvious to say that it must fall into the category of old school. The question then becomes, to what extent, if any, do subsequent games fall into that category. What are the commonalities that would lead us to say, “Game x falls into the same category of game as OD&D?”

Then we can talk about what characteristics lead to a “break” in such ways of thinking, in such “schools of thought.”

[darien]

All of these posts bring up good points and all of them sort of reinforce my main point on this debate.

Honestly, in my personal opinion, what is and isn't Old-School is rather quite simple.

1. Anything before 2000 (or maybe 2003) since the release of D&D 3e/d20 System and the OGL was a massive game changer both mechanically for D&D and for the entire hobby of RPG's. I don't think 3e/d20 System will ever be "Old-School" though it may become "classic"

A good analogy is the difference between "oldies" and "classic hits" in FM radio terminology.

"Classic Hits" is shorthand for any popular music that was popular at least 20 years ago. At this point, the late 90's/early 2000's pop music of my Late Millennial childhood are now old enough to be considered "Classic Hits"

"Oldies" is a more specific form of classic hits, focused on the Baby Boomer generation and referring to the period starting from the birth of Rock & Roll to the death of Disco (or roughly 1955-1980) with the Golden Oldies referring to just the stuff from the 1950's and early-mid 1960's.

All Oldies are Classic Hits, but not not all Classic Hits are Oldies

This is the difference between Old-School RPG's and Classic RPG's.

2. Beyond that 2000 cutoff date, it's all a matter of "I know it when I see it" for me

[Deleted]

Oct 31, 2022 21:21:56 GMT -6 darien said:

All of these posts bring up good points and all of them sort of reinforce my main point on this debate.

Honestly, in my personal opinion, what is and isn't Old-School is rather quite simple.

1. Anything before 2000 (or maybe 2003) since the release of D&D 3e/d20 System and the OGL was a massive game changer both mechanically for D&D and for the entire hobby of RPG's. I don't think 3e/d20 System will ever be "Old-School" though it may become "classic"

A good analogy is the difference between "oldies" and "classic hits" in FM radio terminology.

"Classic Hits" is shorthand for any popular music that was popular at least 20 years ago. At this point, the late 90's/early 2000's pop music of my Late Millennial childhood are now old enough to be considered "Classic Hits"

"Oldies" is a more specific form of classic hits, focused on the Baby Boomer generation and referring to the period starting from the birth of Rock & Roll to the death of Disco (or roughly 1955-1980) with the Golden Oldies referring to just the stuff from the 1950's and early-mid 1960's.

All Oldies are Classic Hits, but not not all Classic Hits are Oldies

This is the difference between Old-School RPG's and Classic RPG's.

2. Beyond that 2000 cutoff date, it's all a matter of "I know it when I see it" for me

 All in the eye of the beholder. For instance, I would not consider anything Disco to be an "oldie" or "classic hits." 

[captainjapan]

darien said:

"Oldies" is a more specific form of classic hits, focused on the Baby Boomer generation and referring to the period starting from the birth of Rock & Roll to the death of Disco (or roughly 1955-1980) with the Golden Oldies referring to just the stuff from the 1950's and early-mid 1960's.

I attended college in the late nineties, where I was exposed to classic rock by upperclassmen much cooler than I. It was undeniably the greatest rock:

Led Zeppelin

Pink Floyd

Boston

The Doors

The Allman Bros.
Jimi Hendrix

The Who

etc.

I assumed that every class before mine, stretching back to Vietnam, and continuing into the foreseeable future would come to KNOW that this was the greatest rock ever produced. I assumed that it would be revealed as such to successive generations as it had been to me. Oldies?! Nay, I say. It is timeless. The period beginning in the late sixties through the mid seventies is considered by many to be the pinnacle of creative output in the genre. "Oldies" is that scratchy stuff your grandma dances the Charleston to.


If only there was an analogue to this perennial rediscovery for roleplaying games

[darien]

Oct 31, 2022 23:20:59 GMT -6 captainjapan said:

darien said:

"Oldies" is a more specific form of classic hits, focused on the Baby Boomer generation and referring to the period starting from the birth of Rock & Roll to the death of Disco (or roughly 1955-1980) with the Golden Oldies referring to just the stuff from the 1950's and early-mid 1960's.

I attended college in the late nineties, where I was exposed to classic rock by upperclassmen much cooler than I. It was undeniably the greatest rock:

Led Zeppelin

Pink Floyd

Boston

The Doors

The Allman Bros.
Jimi Hendrix

The Who

etc.

I assumed that every class before mine, stretching back to Vietnam, and continuing into the foreseeable future would come to KNOW that this was the greatest rock ever produced. I assumed that it would be revealed as such to successive generations as it had been to me. Oldies?! Nay, I say. It is timeless. The period beginning in the late sixties through the mid seventies is considered by many to be the pinnacle of creative output in the genre. "Oldies" is that scratchy stuff your grandma dances the Charleston to.


If only there was an analogue to this perennial rediscovery for roleplaying games

Hey, you've got some impeccable tastes in rock music, I must admit. I'm a huge fan of the timeless rock from the 60's and 70's. Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, The Who, Creedence Clearwater Revival, The Rolling Stones, David Bowie, Queen, Hendrix, The Allman Brothers, Jim Morrion and The motherf**king Doors, etc.

I'm just going by the de facto terminology the FM radio business uses. Like, "Oldies" and "Classic Hits" are considered to be entirely different formats for business demographic purposes by most radio broadcasters, and that was the definition they generally conform to.

Any of the pre-Rock & Roll/pre-Boomer fare that the Greatest Generation and older Silent Gen danced the Charleston to is considered "Adult Standards" in FM radio format/genre jargon.

[rredmond]

The day I heard a muzak version of a Jethro Tull song, literally in an elevator, was... well, it was a long time ago back in college, but still sad

I don't know if I've weighed in here, but for me old school doesn't really mean much, other than I have a point of reference to talk to folks - and more often than not enjoy the conversation. I know I'm a niche of a niche hobby. Basically for me if someone says that something is compatible to OD&D, Labyrinth Lord, Holmes, BFRPG or OSRIC/AD&D 1e, there's a very good chance I'll look at it and like it. Other editions, clones, simulcra, the further away from 1e they get, the quicker I am not to even bother. I also only look at modules, no extra classes or world. So maybe I'm a niche, of a niche, of a niche.

[captainjapan]

darien said:


I'm just going by the de facto terminology the FM radio business uses. Like, "Oldies" and "Classic Hits" are considered to be entirely different formats for business demographic purposes by most radio broadcasters, and that was the definition they generally conform to.

Makes sense. It's kind of like what would happen if your local game/comic store could stock old rpg games and accessories same as current editions. Then they might also settle on a branding scheme that works chronologically, like radio turns musical eras into more formats.

note: I should have said, CCR. I wanted to, but for some reason I think of CCR as being part of an earlier, pre-psychedelia period along with the Beach Boys and the Beatles.

Boy, pigeonholing, is hard work. I'm going to go over to DriveThruRPG, and see how they sort the games (probably just by genre)

[DungeonDevil]

Maybe we should just abandon the term Old School anyway. It's been a socio-political football for at least 20 years in the RPGsphere. I'm tired of it, really. Much like the whole "crunch vs. fluff" ("machine" vs. "chrome") arguments on many RPG fora. Things have become far too Label-centric.

Ford vs. Chevy!
Miller Lite vs. Coors!
Old Coke vs. New Coke!
Crunchy vs. Creamy!

I'm now in favour of the liberating movement of "Label Nudism".

[lige]

I chose the pre-1980 option but I'd probably go up to 1983 or 1984. Conveniently the time I first got into the game! Even as a kid all I really wanted was the old modules you would see on the back of products that were already out of print. I still treasure my copy of All the Worlds Monsters I found at the back of a rack at my local hobby shop. But I also appreciate that anything in the descending AC era is basically compatible. Maybe Pre-3E is it's own designation.

[tdenmark]

Nov 1, 2022 9:03:55 GMT -6 rredmond said:

The day I heard a muzak version of a Jethro Tull song, literally in an elevator, was... well, it was a long time ago back in college, but still sad

That hurts my soul.

My introduction to Tull was the album art for Broadsword & the Beast. The artist did a guest lecture at my college and brought the original painting for display, along with a lot of other amazing art. The artist? None other than the legendary film concept designer Iain McCaig. Not only an amazing artist, but a great speaker and charismatic personality. That changed my life and the direction my art took after that.

B&tB is still one of my favorite Tull albums, and of course since then I've become a huge fan as their incredible music is simpatico with D&D.

[rredmond]

Back cover is pretty neato too. Especially in 3D

[talysman]

Nov 1, 2022 9:03:55 GMT -6 rredmond said:

The day I heard a muzak version of a Jethro Tull song, literally in an elevator, was... well, it was a long time ago back in college, but still sad

Are you sure it was an actual Muzak version, or could it have been from A Classic Case: The London Symphony Orchestra Plays Jethro Tull? That album is actually pretty good, arranged for orchestra by a band member, and includes performances by Anderson, Barre, etc.

[rredmond]

I was at CMU in the late 80s so it’s very well likely actually! While I’m a big Martin Lancelot Barre fan, I’ve enjoyed most of the orchestral and Little Light Music Tull; might be obvious I’m a fan That night might have involved some Iron City beer too, but it was definitely on an elevator in one of the dorms. Thanks, interesting, and likely correct, point talysman !

[dicebro]

Old School wasn’t afraid to publish art that had nipples.

[jamesmishler]

"Old School" started as a way for those of us who grew up with D&D as it grew and changed to recapture the feeling and style of play that we remembered from before 3rd Edition. So whether that was OD&D, Holmes, AD&D, BX, BECMI, or 2E, it was all "Old School."

When Gary died, Old School kinda focused on his strongest contributions for a time, or at least, how people perceived those. Thus, the focus fell more strongly on OD&D and AD&D; Labyrinth Lord kept BX as a strong contender as the Advanced Edition Companion enabled "advanced" play as many of us experienced it.

Then, as time moved on, so did the "movement," and a new generation of conceptualization of what Old School could be came into play -- the Variants. These were all based on vague memories of regional interpretations of OD&D, combined with D&D "inspired" games and unofficial supplements. The new movement morphed further into artistic, "cutting edge," and "edgelord" territories until it was almost unrecognizable.

But there are still plenty of folks just rolling dice and having fun the old fashion way.

Pathfinder is essentially "Old School" 3E, or was, with the 1st edition. Now it is something else, and I've not seen a hue and cry to keep that 3.75E movement going, so I don't think there's any staying power there.

[tdenmark]

Nov 1, 2022 20:12:16 GMT -6 dicebro said:

Old School wasn’t afraid to publish art that had nipples.

I need to update my list then:

To Matt Finch it is a spirit of play.
To some it is a specific era.
To others it is specific published products.
To dicebro old school is nipples.

[dicebro]

Nov 1, 2022 21:45:49 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

Nov 1, 2022 20:12:16 GMT -6 dicebro said:

Old School wasn’t afraid to publish art that had nipples.

I need to update my list then:

To Matt Finch it is a spirit of play.
To some it is a specific era.
To others it is specific published products.
To dicebro old school is nipples.

You gotta draw a line somewhere.

[oldskolgmr]

Nov 1, 2022 21:45:49 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

Nov 1, 2022 20:12:16 GMT -6 dicebro said:

Old School wasn’t afraid to publish art that had nipples.

I need to update my list then:

To Matt Finch it is a spirit of play.
To some it is a specific era.
To others it is specific published products.
To dicebro old school is nipples.

ROFLMAO

[Deleted]

It is decreed upon this August day that tiddies are old school. So say we all.

[dicebro]

Nov 4, 2022 5:53:15 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

It is decreed upon this August day that tiddies are old school. So say we all.

So shall it be written. So shall it be done.  (Sound of a gong)

[Finarvyn]

Nov 1, 2022 20:12:16 GMT -6 dicebro said:

Old School wasn’t afraid to publish art that had nipples.

Oh, he went there. And this was a "family friendly" message board, too.

[geoffrey]

I know that if Gary's B2: The Keep on the Borderlands isn't old school, then I don't want to be old school.

[tetramorph]

I can't remember where he said it, but I like Falconer's take, as I recall it.

It may well be the case that story style gaming was there almost from the start.

But what we mean by "old school" is, well, not story gaming.

There are a lot of ways to say it. The way I try to explain it to folks is something like, "I am running a simulation of an internally consistent fantasy world. You are helping me to run that simulation by playing characters in this fantasy world. The game is that of ever increasing your characters power in the world. This works, in part, gaining higher "levels." You attain higher levels through accruing experience points. You get experience points by accruing treasure, or gold pieces. You gain treasure by exploring unknown and usually underground areas and structures. These areas are dangerous, so increasing your power makes you more capable of success. You will solve puzzles and conundrums as players, your characters will fight monsters according to their class and level and your ability, as players, to use these powers strategically and tactically."

[jamesmishler]

Two words: Emergent Bildungsroman.

If you need three: Emergent Picaresque Bildungsroman.

[tdenmark]

Nov 4, 2022 5:53:15 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

It is decreed upon this August day that tiddies are old school. So say we all.

At first I read that as Tiddledy (as in Winks) and the thought immediately came to mind that if it doesn't come with little plastic disks is it even old school?

[tdenmark]

Nov 4, 2022 16:50:30 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

I know that if Gary's B2: The Keep on the Borderlands isn't old school, then I don't want to be old school.

B2 is my OD&D.

Literally. It was the first D&D book I owned and somehow we managed to play just using the reference charts in that module.