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Post by Finarvyn on Aug 14, 2022 8:13:00 GMT -6
Apparently a new edition of 13th Age is in playtest. They don't plan on calling it 2E, but instead "Escalation Edition" based on their escalation die mechanic, I assume. Not much info out there yet, but I thought I'd put this on the radar of anyone who likes the 13th Age game system.  |
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Post by jeffb on Aug 14, 2022 14:06:14 GMT -6
Yep. phantomtim posted about this on MEWE ...last week?.... during Gencon (I assume- I'm not following such things anymore) as he's been running a playtest. I got the feeling he cannot spill the beans, but this the most exciting "new edition of D&D" in recent years as far as my tastes go. I do believe it's out a year or so before the KS?...and Rob's projects are notorious for taking a very long time (like 13th Age in Glorantha and other 13th Age books), so my enthusiasm is lukewarm at the present. |
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Post by Finarvyn on Aug 14, 2022 17:19:26 GMT -6
Honestly, I played 13th Age pretty heavily for a while and then "D&D Next" came out. I would play every week in the game store, one week at the 13th Age table and the next at the Next table. This lasted for a few months, then the Next GM asked me to pick one or the other because it was hard to generate continuity with me only there every other session. I thought it was a reasonable request and I chose Next, and I tried to convince the 13th Age folks to pick another day but had no success there. A couple of years ago I ran into the 13th Age GM and tried to talk him into running again, but he only wanted to play the same day as 5E's Adventurer's League so instead of getting two games a week I would have been forced to choose again. Ugh.
So, I miss 13th Age but the scheduling at my local store was never great. I'm hoping to join the playtest so that I can maybe run some 13th Age with my group.
I'm hoping we can find a few more souls who would like to discuss 13th Age here, either the older edition or the new playtest. It's a game with a lot of neat rules, yet feels very D&D-like.
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Post by stevemitchell on Aug 14, 2022 19:34:35 GMT -6
If anyone has tried 13th Age in Glorantha, I would be very interested in your comments, pro or con.
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phantomtim
Level 3 Conjurer
13th Age Enthusiast
Posts: 87 
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Post by phantomtim on Aug 16, 2022 3:05:46 GMT -6
Yep. phantomtim posted about this on MEWE ...last week?.... during Gencon (I assume- I'm not following such things anymore) as he's been running a playtest. I got the feeling he cannot spill the beans, but this the most exciting "new edition of D&D" in recent years as far as my tastes go. I started playtesting material shortly before the announcement. While I can't talk about specifics, my group has had a great time with the revisions so far! I've only received a few select pieces to test, but I like what I've seen. I do believe it's out a year or so before the KS?...and Rob's projects are notorious for taking a very long time (like 13th Age in Glorantha and other 13th Age books), so my enthusiasm is lukewarm at the present. This is a fair observation. I hope they move quicker this time! |
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phantomtim
Level 3 Conjurer
13th Age Enthusiast
Posts: 87
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Post by phantomtim on Aug 16, 2022 3:10:39 GMT -6
If anyone has tried 13th Age in Glorantha, I would be very interested in your comments, pro or con. I've run quite a bit 13th Age Glorantha. I've played some sessions as well. It feels very heroic compared to RuneQuest. Imagine starting a game as a Rune Lord or Rune Priest—that's the feeling the 13th Age Glorantha delivers. Players are hearty and have a lot of options. Heroquesting is a regular part of gameplay. Heroquest gifts replace magic items as the source of additional power for the characters. 13th Age mechanics encourage player agency. The rune system offers players a way to momentarily take narrative control over a detail in a non-combat scene. Backgrounds and One Unique Things allow players to further customize Glorantha (YGWV). The Chaos monsters are truly fearsome. I'm pretty sure the Crimson Bat is the most formidable monster in all of 13th Age. If you have further questions, I'm happy to provide more details. |
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Post by stevemitchell on Aug 16, 2022 9:37:45 GMT -6
Thanks for the response! I've always felt that Glorantha could be played using other systems than RuneQuest (not that there is anything wrong with RQ). What you have said about using 13th Age intrigues me greatly.
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Post by jeffb on Aug 17, 2022 8:50:21 GMT -6
I agree with phantomtim - 13AiG is the other side of the coin from RQ as far as gameplay; it's more heroic and PCs are more like the Rune Lords/Rune Priests (i.e. future movers and shakers). For those who maybe feel like RQ as a system is a bit too grounded/realistic for a such a world steeped in myth and heroic deeds/legend, 13AiG will probably fit the bill. Rob and Jon are huge fans of Glorantha and they did it justice. |
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phantomtim
Level 3 Conjurer
13th Age Enthusiast
Posts: 87
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Post by phantomtim on Aug 18, 2022 3:11:44 GMT -6
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Post by jeffb on Aug 19, 2022 8:53:53 GMT -6
I've got in-laws staying with me for the next few days so any time to get my thoughts together re: a new edition are fleeting. That said- a few quick items... (edit- more than a few)
I like that they are working on a clearer version of the ICON rules, and a re-done Fighter. When I was running 13A I would use a re-skinned Barbarian with better Armor for Fighters or the 13A Companion Character Master of Arms (which is the most fun).
I'd like to see the powers/abilities that utilize an ever increasing bonus for each failure go away. I found many of these to not trigger often enough/never end up triggering for PCs due to crappy dice rolling which led to much frustration.
Damage on a Miss needs to die-it's not prevalent in the game, and I don't have an issue with it from a narrative point of view, but many player's can't wrap their creative mind around it for some reason (yet things like HP, instant healing, and jumping up full power from O hp are completely acceptable? Gamers are a weird lot)
Rogue/Momentum needs to be less crunchy/streamlined.
I'd like to see a general reduction in #s inflation, but that would probably not be easily backwards compatible.
I'd like to see mooks revised to 4E style minions. Easier to use.
Many of the Monsters in the core book could use some revision.
Core book needs better/usable layout
Core book needs a better intro adventure (Swords Against the Dead would be a great choice!)
a large portion of the GM guide from the GM pack needs to be incorporated into the core book.
What I don't want to see:
Changes/expansions to the lore/timeline/events/places/Icons of The Dragon Empire- it's a giant toolkit/sandbox meant to different in interpretation and operation for each DM/Group. Don't try to codify the setting- adding in the supplemental material from 13TW would be fine, but don't expand it.
A core book that adds more player facing crunch- classes/races, etc. Expanding existing core races/classes is fine.
Don't change the symbol style art for the core monsters and incorporate full art pieces. I actually love the original approach and think it was very clever- I wish the other 13A Monster books had gone this route. It also saves space and I'm guessing $.
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phantomtim
Level 3 Conjurer
13th Age Enthusiast
Posts: 87
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Post by phantomtim on Aug 22, 2022 3:44:21 GMT -6
When I was running 13A I would use a re-skinned Barbarian with better Armor for Fighters or the 13A Companion Character Master of Arms (which is the most fun). You might want to check out the 3rd-party Warrior class found in Escalation Issue 6. I've used it several times at my tables, and it's scratched the itch as a fighter that isn't reliant upon the natural d20 roll to trigger its abilities. Damage on a Miss needs to die-it's not prevalent in the game, and I don't have an issue with it from a narrative point of view, but many player's can't wrap their creative mind around it for some reason I would truly miss this if it were gone. While the damage isn't huge, it's enough that it makes every roll feel like it counts. It's always popular at my tables. I've had to explain what's going on in the game narrative to model this damage, when new players ask, and I've never had anyone complain about it after the explanation. Granted, I'm only sharing anecdotes, and that's not to say that your experience isn't significantly different from mine. I'd like to see mooks revised to 4E style minions. Easier to use. My melee characters would be sad if the mook rules changed. They love it when a single massive melee attack can hack through multiple enemies without needing to roll more attack dice. |
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Post by jeffb on Aug 22, 2022 19:08:25 GMT -6
When I was running 13A I would use a re-skinned Barbarian with better Armor for Fighters or the 13A Companion Character Master of Arms (which is the most fun). You might want to check out the 3rd-party Warrior class found in Escalation Issue 6. I've used it several times at my tables, and it's scratched the itch as a fighter that isn't reliant upon the natural d20 roll to trigger its abilities. Damage on a Miss needs to die-it's not prevalent in the game, and I don't have an issue with it from a narrative point of view, but many player's can't wrap their creative mind around it for some reason I would truly miss this if it were gone. While the damage isn't huge, it's enough that it makes every roll feel like it counts. It's always popular at my tables. I've had to explain what's going on in the game narrative to model this damage, when new players ask, and I've never had anyone complain about it after the explanation. Granted, I'm only sharing anecdotes, and that's not to say that your experience isn't significantly different from mine. I'd like to see mooks revised to 4E style minions. Easier to use. My melee characters would be sad if the mook rules changed. They love it when a single massive melee attack can hack through multiple enemies without needing to roll more attack dice.Thanks for the tip on the Fighter- I'll check it out. From day one, there were a lot of alternate Fighters done up by the 13A fan community, so I guess that was a pretty good indicator it needed some work/refinement. I'm the kind of DM who doesn't want to track any more than I absolutely have to- 13A minions require me tracking HP for a large number of foes. With 4E, it's one hit and done (I also have use 2/3 hit minions in every edition/game I run 4E, OD&D/variants, C&C , etc. but it wasn't worth it- went back to 1 hit) I don't have a problem with the DOAM, but I get the issue people have with it and I don't feel it adds enough value as a mechanic. D&D combat is tough to rationalize and when discussing the weirdness of HP and then trying to justify DOAM when one considers HP as luck/fatigue and not just "meat", DOAM is tougher to make a good case for in the fiction. |
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phantomtim
Level 3 Conjurer
13th Age Enthusiast
Posts: 87
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Post by phantomtim on Aug 22, 2022 21:33:54 GMT -6
I'm the kind of DM who doesn't want to track any more than I absolutely have to- 13A minions require me tracking HP for a large number of foes. It's possible I'm doing things a little different than other GMs are. If I have, say 10 mooks in 13th Age, I'll track that as a line in my notes that looks like: 10 @ 8 hp ea - remaining: 10 - damage taken: 0 I then count up the damage as the mob of mooks take damage. Every time I get to 8 hp (in this example), I subtract one from the remaining mooks number (the second 10), and subtract 8 from the damage taken number. Thus, I count down the remaining mooks, and count up the damage taken (only up to the max hp of a single mook in the mob). DOAM is tougher to make a good case for in the fiction. I don't consider myself particularly well-read in high fantasy, but I typically talk about HP representing stamina, rather than "meat points," as early on – often during my Session Zero. When a character does miss damage, I describe it in the fiction as the enemy having to exert themselves to avoid the hit. To really drive home how competent 13th Age characters are, I'll say something like, "You're so good at what you do, that bandit really had to strain to parry your blow. Even though you didn't draw blood, you see him wince. A few more attacks like that, and you'll wear him down until he can't raise his sword with enough force to defend himself." Just goes to show that all groups are unique.  |
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tedopon
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Post by tedopon on Aug 27, 2022 9:45:05 GMT -6
I ran a long campaign of 13A Glorantha and it is very different than Runequest. Both are great, but they are completely different power level and narrative focus. 13G tends to be more like "what if Heroquest characters played D&D?"
Just like 13A core the game gets stupid silly after the mid levels to the point no one at the table enjoyed it. I hope the next version truncates a lot of the math and dice inflation. I love 13A but the scaling is silly and I only like it in the lower to mid level range.
13G just as a book is awesome...I sold off most of my Glorantha collection a couple years ago and it was one of the ones I kept.
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Post by Finarvyn on Aug 28, 2022 6:28:49 GMT -6
...the game gets stupid silly after the mid levels to the point no one at the table enjoyed it... Honestly, this is a statement I could make about most RPGs that I have played over the decades. When we get past a certain point in advancement my enjoyment-level begins freefall. I guess this is a smart feature so that folks who love high-power games can own the same rules as those who like low-power, but I often wish that companies would just break their games into half (call 'em Basic and Advanced or something like that) so that I could buy the lower half only. |
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Post by jeffb on Aug 28, 2022 7:40:46 GMT -6
...the game gets stupid silly after the mid levels to the point no one at the table enjoyed it... Honestly, this is a statement I could make about most RPGs that I have played over the decades. When we get past a certain point in advancement my enjoyment-level begins freefall. I guess this is a smart feature so that folks who love high-power games can own the same rules as those who like low-power, but I often wish that companies would just break their games into half (call 'em Basic and Advanced or something like that) so that I could buy the lower half only. Agreed 100%. High level play sounds great in theory, and there are lot's of high level fun monsters I want to use, but nearly all FRPGS start to break down at mid high levels, and D&D class/level based games in particular (D&D, 13A, DCC, etc). I also like a low level/high level play split. I loved the old breakdown of TSR era B/X or the BE of BECMI- I had zero use for the CMI part. When I ran 4E, we stuck to the Heroic Tier. 13A has tiers as well. I feel breaking the game into stylistic "parts" with mechanical limitations/definitions this way is a good thing. 5E fails in this regard because the tiers are simply vague descriptors. |
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Post by jeffb on Aug 28, 2022 8:07:18 GMT -6
I'm the kind of DM who doesn't want to track any more than I absolutely have to- 13A minions require me tracking HP for a large number of foes. It's possible I'm doing things a little different than other GMs are. If I have, say 10 mooks in 13th Age, I'll track that as a line in my notes that looks like: 10 @ 8 hp ea - remaining: 10 - damage taken: 0 I then count up the damage as the mob of mooks take damage. Every time I get to 8 hp (in this example), I subtract one from the remaining mooks number (the second 10), and subtract 8 from the damage taken number. Thus, I count down the remaining mooks, and count up the damage taken (only up to the max hp of a single mook in the mob). I meant to address this earlier, Tim. I still find that method a time sink. I run a fast paced game during combat and more tracking leads to less excitement/engagement. I get what you are saying about taking multiple foes down with one roll with the mook rules in 13A- but that's something I prefer to give to Fighters (only) as a class ability (which is what I do in my C&C, OD&D variants). I don't really care for it thematically for other classes and generally a zone attack of some sort (e.g. Fireball for Wizards) allows casters to do that anyway. I'm a firm believer in the Fighter being the best at pure hand to hand Fighting, no matter what "D&D". Thus why I'd prefer to see the 13A version changed officially (though of course, I can and have done the changes myself) Getting back to the mechanical aspect of it: in 4E all I have to write is "Goblin minions x 6 5 4 3" Each time one is hit, I cross it off. No tracking any HP/Damage. Much easier and faster than the 13A system, and provides the same in game benefit of lots of foes that have the ability to bust up/mob the PCs, but won't stay in the fight long ala Conan and John Carter vs the hordes. I guess if you have players that are really invested in the mechanical aspects of combat and don't mind combats that last a fair amount of time, than your method is probably just fine. For my games (as you say, each group is different), combat moves quickly and without much time for players to spend strategizing each round/between their turns. |
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tedopon
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Post by tedopon on Aug 28, 2022 11:03:33 GMT -6
It looks like all the things I don't like about 13A will remain in the next game. I love the game, but the dice are silly after a certain point. I was hoping they would have pared it down mathematically and utilized a system more like the keywords that monsters get instead of doubling down on the Hyper D&D system they used in the first version. Oh well. Still is a great game, but more of a toolkit to tinker with for me personally than a game I want to run as is.
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