A System for Monster Strength Value

[Parzival]

Neither Classic nor OD&D provide Ability Score information for monsters; it’s left to the GM to decide what, if any, numbers apply. (The lone exception is Intelligence, which is given in the RC, presumable for the purpose of determining the effectiveness of certain mind-affecting magic).
We get a single hint from the Gauntlets of Ogre Strength, which grant the wearer Str 18, but that’s all.
Most of the time it’s not all that important— but every once in a while a player comes up with a unique way to directly test his strength against an opponent. So I’ve come up with the following basis for determining a monster’s Strength value, based on the monster size:

Small= 7 + Monster Hit Die +/- hit die modifier. Monsters with 1/2 or 1/4 HD have strengths of 7 and 6, respectively.
Medium (aka Man-sized)= 10 + Monster Hit Die, +/- hit die modifier
Large or Giant= 13 + Monster Hit Die +/- hit die modifier (Note the Ogre would be 13 + 4HD +1 mod= 18. It WORKS! 8) )

This is only meant to cover humanoid/human-like forms, and is entirely off the top of my head.

I have it as working out as follows:
Kobold: Str 7
Goblins: Str 7
Orcs: Strength 11
Hobgoblins: Strength 12
Gnoll: Strength 15
Bugbear: Strength 17
Ogre: Strength 18 (See!)
Hill Giant: Strength 18+ (21)*
And so on.

* Actually, by the implications of the rules “18” is the maximum measurable strength. Creatures like giants, etc., who are enormously strong, aren’t measured by the game and probably shouldn’t be. Hence I designate this as 18+, though the calculated progression might be of value to the DM. For example, a Storm Giant has Str 28 with this system, which is somewhat ridiculous to calculate. Basically, if he wants to pick it, up he can pick it up.

There’s nothing wrong with applying this to some beasties, though in many cases it won’t really matter— for example, even a Small White Dragon would be Str 18+ (19). I haven’t explored the whole gamut of possible monsters, and of course there will be some for whom the system makes no sense, especially those which are non-corporeal, undead, magical constructs, oozes, etc..

I also posted a version of this at Dragonfoot, but I’ve rethought the Str values for 1/2 and 1/4 HD monsters, as kobolds are in this group, and need to have *some* level of Strength approaching a “normal” level.

[Finarvyn]

Nice post. As I was reading it I started to imagine a table with size on one axis and HD on the other, with a suggested strength value found at the intersection. I seem to recall seeing something like this... maybe in a 2E book? My memory fails me on this point.

Also, I have no problem with a Storm Giant having 28 strength. While I agree that in most situations there isn't much need to calculate this stuff, it might be useful if a Storm Giant has to deal with a Frost Giant or somesuch. I like the concept and wonder if it can be applied to other attributes.

One thing that bothers me a little, however, is the use of "HD + modifier" as an equal thing. In other words, HD of 1+1 can be equal to 2 and that doesn't break the calculation, but if the HD is 3+3 I don't think it should equal 6. Maybe I'm not reading your explanation right. I would say that 1+1 might round down to 1 and 3+3 might round upward to 4. (Anything at 3 and above rounds up.) Or, anything over a HD rounds up so that 1+1 becomes 2 and 3+3 is still 4. Again, perhaps I misread what you wrote.

Anyway, overall I like this!

[Parzival]

Yeah, this was off the top of my head, which is why I limited it to “human form” monsters.
Of those, at least in Classic, not counting a couple of Lycanthropes, only the Troll has a + over 1— Trolls are 6+3, which would produce a Strength of 18+ (22)… and would make them numerically stronger than a Hill Giant (21) , which really doesn’t track (although the monster description does describe trolls as being “very strong.”)

So probably any + should just be treated as +1, which would drop the Troll down to 18+ (20). I don’t have a problem with Trolls being stronger than Ogres, especially as they are higher up the monster food chain, as it were.

OR Giants could get a size boost for being literally giants, and start with 15 as the base… producing Hill Giants with Strengths of 23 and Storm Giants with Strengths of 30 (And Mountain Giants with potential strengths of 35(!)). But again, there’s probably not much point in that; the main purpose is to derive common stats for humanoids.

Interestingly, the Orc description in the RC states that one orc in every group does +1 damage (basically, Str 13-15), and the orc chieftain does +2 damage (Str 16-17), so the system isn’t perfect. Of course, that’s the RC version, so may not track back for all the Classic editions.

[Finarvyn]

I think you're onto something.

Also, a poster on DF mentioned some rules in the 2E high level campaigns book, which I can't access at the moment as it's packed away, but that might be the book I was thinking about in my earlier post.

[hamurai]

Jun 29, 2022 16:49:50 GMT -6 Parzival said:

Interestingly, the Orc description in the RC states that one orc in every group does +1 damage (basically, Str 13-15), and the orc chieftain does +2 damage (Str 16-17), so the system isn’t perfect. Of course, that’s the RC version, so may not track back for all the Classic editions.

They could just get a damage bonus, similar to the ranger, unrelated to STR.

[tombowings]

Excellent. Any idea how to calculate monster Dexterity?

[waysoftheearth]

Jun 28, 2022 17:42:20 GMT -6 Parzival said:

Small= 7 + Monster Hit Die +/- hit die modifier. Monsters with 1/2 or 1/4 HD have strengths of 7 and 6, respectively.
Medium (aka Man-sized)= 10 + Monster Hit Die, +/- hit die modifier
Large or Giant= 13 + Monster Hit Die +/- hit die modifier (Note the Ogre would be 13 + 4HD +1 mod= 18. It WORKS! 8) )

Mmmm, but then Trolls would be 13+6+3=22, yet the description is explicit they are about equal to an Ogre.

It's kinda interesting that although UWA p9 says dungeon doors much be forced by strength, it goes on to explain that the odds are related to size (men having 2/6, and smaller hobbits having only 1/6 chance). In fact, a PC's strength score doesn't actually do much for him in a 3LBB game; IIRC high strength doesn't even let him carry more stuff. Those extras came along mostly with GH.

For a 3LBBs game, monster physical power and/or damage appears to be related to size, which is more-or-less hinting that size and strength go together. It's intuitive that a man is stronger than a (smaller) goblin, and a (larger) troll is stronger than a man. So when the players see a giant, they can immediately assume it's gonna be strong and hit hard.

I'd hazard the height of monsters given in M&T may be a pretty good indicator of their relative strengths. Those without explicit size could, broadly, be extrapolated from their HD.

But is a hero stronger than a normal man?
What about: is a hero with an average strength score stronger than an everyday normal man with above-average strength (say, a blacksmith)?
without fussing too much over exact numbers, I'd say a hero could/would legitimately beat a normal, even one with a higher strength score. Not that normals even have ability scores--and not having them avoids exactly this issue. But that's what this topic is about

[Finarvyn]

Jun 30, 2022 0:01:59 GMT -6 tombowings said:

Excellent. Any idea how to calculate monster Dexterity?

Dexterity could be tied to inches of movement.

[Finarvyn]

Jun 30, 2022 4:06:23 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

But is a hero stronger than a normal man?

What about: is a hero with an average strength score stronger than an everyday normal man with above-average strength (say, a blacksmith)?
without fussing too much over exact numbers, I'd say a hero could/would legitimately beat a normal, even one with a higher strength score. Not that normals even have ability scores--and not having them avoids exactly this issue. But that's what this topic is about

Remember that the goal is to create attributes scores for man-like creatures who don't have them, so I would say that a typical hero should be stronger than a typical normal man. If you have stats for both, just use the stats. That way a "normal man blacksmith" might be stronger than a typical hero.

[Parzival]

One thing I try to keep in mind is that the distribution is not equal among the numbers. It’s a bell curve, with the extremes being very rare. While Strength helps being a blacksmith, not all blacksmiths are Charles Atlas. Among normal men, a Blacksmith might just be guy with Strength 12– higher than most normal people, but not a bruiser. Compared to the “normal” of 10, he’s much stronger— about 10% so— but compared to a heroic Conan or Lancelot type, he’s just run of the mill.